The age of miracles

[Athetotheist]

It's not really my intention to make a whole thread out of this; I just mean to pose a question as a point of curiosity: Can anyone refer me to textual evidence that the age of miracles was to end with the passing of the apostles?

[Red Wolf]

The Apostle Peter, claimed that Jesus was "a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst" Acts 2:22
I say that these miracles never happened and I have the proof they never happened right from the Bible.
1) When Jesus was with his Apostles in the garden of Gethsemane, [Mark 14:32-50] when Judas and the men came for Jesus with swords and clubs, the Apostles feared for their lives and they ran away. ""And they all left Him and fled."" [Mark 14:50] Had the Apostles actually witnessed Jesus healing the sick and injured, walking on water, and raising the dead, they would have had nothing to fear. The safest place to be would be with a man who could perform these fabulous miracles. But the Apostles ran for their lives because the miracles in the gospels never happened.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 61 by Red Wolf]

So we must accept your OPINION? Why? I don't.

I doubt that you have ever been in that situation, so how do you know how the apostles actually acted and why? Their fear got the best of them. That's what we know. We don't know why they lost their confidence in Jesus.

Peter lost his confidence out on the sea when he started to walk toward Jesus on the water, didn't he? His fear overtook him. So if the account was left up to you, you would say that Jesus never walked on water, right?

How about all the Israelites, when they left Egypt and were walking through the Red Sea, safely to the other side? It didn't take them long to start complaining and fearing that they were going to die. They had seen MANY miracles. Yet their confidence waned and they even made a calf idol to dance around. So your argument would be that there never were any miracles? They didn't really walk through the Red Sea?

So what you are doing is denying the Bible accounts out of hand.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 62 by onewithhim]

They had seen MANY miracles. Yet their confidence waned and they even made a calf idol to dance around. So your argument would be that there never were any miracles?

If I had actually seen "MANY miracles" I am certain my confidence would not have waned. You have made a reasonable case for those miracles never having occurred. It seems to me that Christians back up their faith with far less than experiencing any of the sorts of miracles recounted in the Bible. In fact it mostly stems from simply believing that those accounts are true. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 62 by onewithhim]

They had seen MANY miracles. Yet their confidence waned and they even made a calf idol to dance around. So your argument would be that there never were any miracles?

If I had actually seen "MANY miracles" I am certain my confidence would not have waned. You have made a reasonable case for those miracles never having occurred. It seems to me that Christians back up their faith with far less than experiencing any of the sorts of miracles recounted in the Bible. In fact it mostly stems from simply believing that those accounts are true. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

You are simply believing that those accounts are not true. Again I say that you are dismissing the Bible out of hand. That is not a valid position to take on this forum, especially when you have nothing solid to base your premise on. All you can say is "that never happened."

I also feel that I would not have had my confidence negatively affected if I had seen the miracles that the Jews saw, and there were a few that held their confidence. But the majority gave way to doubt and disobedience. We can observe that situation in a sense today. The majority of people on Earth do not put their trust in Jehovah, the God of the Bible. They want what they want, when they want it.

[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 61 by Red Wolf]

So we must accept your OPINION? Why? I don't.

I doubt that you have ever been in that situation, so how do you know how the apostles actually acted and why? Their fear got the best of them. That's what we know. We don't know why they lost their confidence in Jesus.

Peter lost his confidence out on the sea when he started to walk toward Jesus on the water, didn't he? His fear overtook him. So if the account was left up to you, you would say that Jesus never walked on water, right?

How about all the Israelites, when they left Egypt and were walking through the Red Sea, safely to the other side? It didn't take them long to start complaining and fearing that they were going to die. They had seen MANY miracles. Yet their confidence waned and they even made a calf idol to dance around. So your argument would be that there never were any miracles? They didn't really walk through the Red Sea?

So what you are doing is denying the Bible accounts out of hand.

The Mother of All Reasons Why the Miracles Are Bogus.
Throughout the Gospels Jesus goes around casting out Demons.
Do Demons exist?
I am confident that demons are imaginary creatures.
Is it a miracle to cast out an imaginary creature?
If the casting out of imaginary creatures demonstrates the validity of Jesus' miracle power, then it casts serious doubt on all the rest of his supposed miracles.
My Christian friends......if you want to believe in Jesus' miracles, I fear that you will have to argue that Demons actually exist.

[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 62 by onewithhim]

They had seen MANY miracles. Yet their confidence waned and they even made a calf idol to dance around. So your argument would be that there never were any miracles?

If I had actually seen "MANY miracles" I am certain my confidence would not have waned. You have made a reasonable case for those miracles never having occurred. It seems to me that Christians back up their faith with far less than experiencing any of the sorts of miracles recounted in the Bible. In fact it mostly stems from simply believing that those accounts are true. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

You are simply believing that those accounts are not true. Again I say that you are dismissing the Bible out of hand. That is not a valid position to take on this forum, especially when you have nothing solid to base your premise on. All you can say is "that never happened."

I also feel that I would not have had my confidence negatively affected if I had seen the miracles that the Jews saw, and there were a few that held their confidence. But the majority gave way to doubt and disobedience. We can observe that situation in a sense today. The majority of people on Earth do not put their trust in Jehovah, the God of the Bible. They want what they want, when they want it.

Jesus told the people of his generation...."" "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet"" [Matthew 12:39] The sign of Jonah referred to his supposed resurrection. But besides this, Jesus promised no signs to his generation. Aren't miracles signs? So was Jesus lying when he said he would not perform any signs, or miracles? Or as I contend, this is proof that Jesus did not perform any miracles.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 9 by tam]

The gifts of the Spirit were passed on only by the Apostles (Paul being an honorary one).

The apostles did not choose who received what gift. Gifts of the spirit come with the anointing of holy spirit (the breath/blood/seed of JAH). Holy spirit is given to whomever Christ chooses, just as the gift that comes with that anointing are given as Christ chooses, as He sees fit.


(Paul was not an honorary apostle; Paul was an apostles in the sense that he was sent forth - the meaning of the word - but he was not an honorary member of the twelve apostles)

No one else has passed them on. Except Satan.

Now how does that make sense at all, onewithhim? How can Satan pass on gifts of the Spirit? Gifts of the Spirit are of/from the Spirit.

What is now considered legitimate "speaking in tongues" is, in this day and age, unintelligible babbling, with people doing so with no respect for the rules that Paul enumerated, such as letting one person speak at a time, & always someone to interpret, etc.. Sometimes the babbling is interpreted as foul language, if it can be interpreted at all.

Yes (and one might wish to consider the lack of wisdom in praising or saying amen to something when one does not even know what is being said. How can one test the inspired expression if one does not even know what is being said?)

But I was not speaking about what some consider to be legitimate gifts of the spirit; I was speaking of what are actually legitimate gifts of the spirit (speaking in tongues is only one of many gifts of the spirit).



Peace again to you,
-a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 65 by Red Wolf]

I believe that demons exist.

How can you be sure that they don't?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 62 by onewithhim]

They had seen MANY miracles. Yet their confidence waned and they even made a calf idol to dance around. So your argument would be that there never were any miracles?

If I had actually seen "MANY miracles" I am certain my confidence would not have waned. You have made a reasonable case for those miracles never having occurred. It seems to me that Christians back up their faith with far less than experiencing any of the sorts of miracles recounted in the Bible. In fact it mostly stems from simply believing that those accounts are true. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on.

You are simply believing that those accounts are not true. Again I say that you are dismissing the Bible out of hand. That is not a valid position to take on this forum, especially when you have nothing solid to base your premise on. All you can say is "that never happened."

I also feel that I would not have had my confidence negatively affected if I had seen the miracles that the Jews saw, and there were a few that held their confidence. But the majority gave way to doubt and disobedience. We can observe that situation in a sense today. The majority of people on Earth do not put their trust in Jehovah, the God of the Bible. They want what they want, when they want it.

Jesus told the people of his generation...."" "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet"" [Matthew 12:39] The sign of Jonah referred to his supposed resurrection. But besides this, Jesus promised no signs to his generation. Aren't miracles signs? So was Jesus lying when he said he would not perform any signs, or miracles? Or as I contend, this is proof that Jesus did not perform any miracles.

One reference book explains it this way:

"During Jesus' ministry he performed numerous signs that helped many to believe in him. (John 2:23) But the signs did not produce faith in hardhearted ones. (Luke 2:34; John 11:47,53; 12:37; compare Num.14:11,22) When on two occasions religious leaders asked Jesus to display to them a sign from heaven, they likely were demanding that he perform, as proof that he was the Messiah, the sign foretold at Daniel 7:13,14, namely, the 'son of man' appearing with the clouds of the heavens to take his Kingdom power.['The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.' But it was not God's time for that prophecy to be fulfilled, and Christ would not perform a showy display merely to gratify their selfish demand. (Matt.12:38; 16:1) Rather, he told them that the only sign that would be given them was 'the sign of Jonah the prophet.'...Jesus' generation had the 'sign of Jonah' when Christ spent parts of three days in the grave and was resurrected....In this, Christ was a sign to that generation, but even that did not convince most of the Jews. (Luke 11:30; I Corinthians 1:22)"


So, Jesus performed many signs/miracles, but the Jews were always after him to do more. Even the sign of Jonah didn't impress them.




(Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.2, p.941)

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 9 by tam]

The gifts of the Spirit were passed on only by the Apostles (Paul being an honorary one).

The apostles did not choose who received what gift. Gifts of the spirit come with the anointing of holy spirit (the breath/blood/seed of JAH). Holy spirit is given to whomever Christ chooses, just as the gift that comes with that anointing are given as Christ chooses, as He sees fit.


(Paul was not an honorary apostle; Paul was an apostles in the sense that he was sent forth - the meaning of the word - but he was not an honorary member of the twelve apostles)

I'm sure Christ directed the Apostles to anoint whomever He, Christ, would choose. Miraculous gifts were endowed upon people at Pentecost, with the Apostles present, and others also received such gifts, but only when one or more of the Apostles were present. (Acts 5:12; 9:36-40)

"Honorary" Apostle was, I guess, my own designation for Paul. I thought he had used that term, but I may be mistaken. He did serve AS an apostle, personally appointed by Jesus. I know he was not considered one of the 12.

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J.D. Douglas, 1980, Vol.I, p.79, tells us that the powers of the gifts of the Spirit were "missing in the 2nd century church, the writers of those days speaking of them as A THING OF THE PAST," in what they called "the apostolic age." So it is quite scriptural AND historical to say that the gifts ended with the death of the last Apostle (John).