Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?

[polonius]

Jesus prophecized that the second coming would occur while some of his generation were still alive, but it didn't.

There is some claim that really occurred in 1914. But it didn't. So, what's the claim now?

www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

The Adventist movement emerged in the 1830s around the predictions of William Miller, who proclaimed that Jesus Christ would return in 1843 or 1844.

When Christ did not return as Miller prophecied, Adventists divided into a number of factions.

During the 1870s, Charles Taze Russell established himself as an independent and controversial Adventist teacher.

He rejected belief in hell as a place of eternal torment and adopted a non-Trinitarian theology that denied the divinity of Jesus. He also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when will Christ's visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth occur?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

The key is to be devoted to God not a date. I believe Jehovah allows such errors to weed out those that are not truly devoted to Him and loyal to His organisation. For me it's not important that I live to see Jehovahs day only that it comes and that his name be sanctified. I do believe we are in the home stretch but if not, will that mean I will have wasted my life? Not at all.

Dates come and go; God comes and stays with every heart that welcomes Him.

Jesus ruled out date-setting.

It is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Our loyalty is to be to the Father and to His beloved Son, of whom He said, "Listen to him".

God has, not an organisation but an organism, the body of the anointed one who is its head.

It was an organisation that sought to kill that anointed one, and succeeded in doing so. They claimed authority and demanded loyalty.

Organisations do exist today that recognise Jesus as the anointed one, and thus claim authority and expect our loyalty; specifically, Catholic, Mormon, and WT.

Many of us are slow learners, it seems to me.

It has been a long hard fight to free ourselves from wrong teachings and attitudes but Ezekiel foretold an elevated temple that does reflect Jehovahs lofty standards for worship on earth as found practised by Jehovahs Witnesses. There is in my opinion no better place to be. Mistakes are the way we humans learn, as long as we learn and do better then that's fine with me.

It's fine with me too, that we do learn from our mistakes.

The problem is, though, we have to first recognise and accept that what we were or are doing was/is an actual mistake!

Grace and peace to you.

What is "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"? (That tree was God's way of seeing if His creations would respect Him enough to leave it alone. It had nothing to do with Adam receiving knowledge. It symbolized the right of God to say what was good or evil. If Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that tree, they would be declaring to God that they wanted to decide for themselves what was good or evil.)

God has always had an organization. In ancient times it was the nation of Israel. When that nation rejected the Messiah, God's organization became the Christian congregation. It had headquarters in Jerusalem. Today its headquarters happens to be in Warwick, New York. There is a heavenly organization also. God's Kingdom in heaven is very organized. It directs His earthly organization.

Please don't categorize us with Catholics and Mormons. We couldn't be further from those institutions.

JWs always admit mistakes and move on from there. We stopped looking for a date after 1975.

This is one post that got skipped over. The conversation got on a tangent, so I'm re-upping it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]

"What in Revelation tells you that the great crowd will live on the earth?"

Reply:

With the background already covered in the Old Testament, which tells of what the earth will be like during the reign of the Messiah--God's appointed King--such as Isaiah chapter 11, Micah 4:4, and numerous other passages, I knew that God intended for people to live on Earth forever (Psalm 37:9-11, 29 particularly interested me). So Revelation undoubtedly harmonizes with all those scriptures.

I read with interest Rev.5:10 which says that the people that go to heaven will "reign over the earth." (I have to say here that the word in Greek translated "over" in a handful of Bible versions that I have, is usually translated "on" by translators today, since the KJV. That word can be translated as either "on" or "over.") So I'm wondering what will the 144,000 be ruling over? Or WHO? Chapter 7 drew my interest. It describes the 144,000 who will be with the Lamb on heavenly Mt. Zion, and then another group of people "standing before the throne and before the Lamb." This group is apparently not included in the previous group of 144,000 sealed individuals.

One of the elders in heaven said to John, "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Verse 14.) It then occurred to me that these people, of a crowd of unnumbered individuals, were the ones who go through the Great Tribulation on earth, and come out of it unscathed. I think that to "come out" of something, one has to be IN it in the first place. So I considered it nonsense that Christians would be, as I was always taught as a Baptist, taken up to heaven before the G.T.

So it stands to reason that it is these people of the Great Crowd, as well as those resurrected to the earth during the Millennial Reign, that will make up the "nations in the four corners of the earth" which the Devil will attack at the end of the 1,000 years, "to mislead" them and get them to war against Jehovah, Jesus, and their people, on the earth. (Rev.20:7-9) Makes perfect sense to me now.

Then chapter 21 speaks of God's government reigning over the earth, and what glorious peace and happiness there will be.

I answered Checkpoint's question in the post above, but he never commented on it. Here it is, because I think he missed it.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]

"What in Revelation tells you that the great crowd will live on the earth?"

Reply:

With the background already covered in the Old Testament, which tells of what the earth will be like during the reign of the Messiah--God's appointed King--such as Isaiah chapter 11, Micah 4:4, and numerous other passages, I knew that God intended for people to live on Earth forever (Psalm 37:9-11, 29 particularly interested me). So Revelation undoubtedly harmonizes with all those scriptures.

I read with interest Rev.5:10 which says that the people that go to heaven will "reign over the earth." (I have to say here that the word in Greek translated "over" in a handful of Bible versions that I have, is usually translated "on" by translators today, since the KJV. That word can be translated as either "on" or "over.") So I'm wondering what will the 144,000 be ruling over? Or WHO? Chapter 7 drew my interest. It describes the 144,000 who will be with the Lamb on heavenly Mt. Zion, and then another group of people "standing before the throne and before the Lamb." This group is apparently not included in the previous group of 144,000 sealed individuals.

One of the elders in heaven said to John, "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Verse 14.) It then occurred to me that these people, of a crowd of unnumbered individuals, were the ones who go through the Great Tribulation on earth, and come out of it unscathed. I think that to "come out" of something, one has to be IN it in the first place. So I considered it nonsense that Christians would be, as I was always taught as a Baptist, taken up to heaven before the G.T.

So it stands to reason that it is these people of the Great Crowd, as well as those resurrected to the earth during the Millennial Reign, that will make up the "nations in the four corners of the earth" which the Devil will attack at the end of the 1,000 years, "to mislead" them and get them to war against Jehovah, Jesus, and their people, on the earth. (Rev.20:7-9) Makes perfect sense to me now.

Then chapter 21 speaks of God's government reigning over the earth, and what glorious peace and happiness there will be.

I answered Checkpoint's question in the post above, but he never commented on it. Here it is, because I think he missed it.

RESPONSE: THe Book of Revelation is fictional.

Is the book of Revelation fact or fiction?
viewtopic.php?t=34211

As succinctly put by one writer "The book of Revelation contains a number of visions, which John received and recorded. Visions are neither fact nor fiction, but communications from God about spiritual realities, usually conveyed by metaphors that are not to be taken literally."

And who really wrote Revelations? Not the Apostle John!

[marco]

As succinctly put by one writer "The book of Revelation contains a number of visions, which John received and recorded. Visions are neither fact nor fiction, but communications from God about spiritual realities, usually conveyed by metaphors that are not to be taken literally."

This is one of the kindest descriptions I've heard about what is sarcastically called "Revelation" where nothing is revealed. That the silly number 144,000 (give or take a few stragglers) is even quoted today is rather sad. Parousia was just a visit by an important person - it has nothing to do with Jesus being a prime minister.

Is life so bad that we have to place our faith in nonsense?

[Checkpoint]

As succinctly put by one writer "The book of Revelation contains a number of visions, which John received and recorded. Visions are neither fact nor fiction, but communications from God about spiritual realities, usually conveyed by metaphors that are not to be taken literally."

This is one of the kindest descriptions I've heard about what is sarcastically called "Revelation" where nothing is revealed. That the silly number 144,000 (give or take a few stragglers) is even quoted today is rather sad. Parousia was just a visit by an important person - it has nothing to do with Jesus being a prime minister.

Sarcastically? In your eyes, no doubt.

Silly, rather sad?

Perhaps, that is also what you might say about much of the Bible and Christianity, and of believers as to their beliefs.

Is life so bad that we have to place our faith in nonsense?

We do not place our faith in nonsence, but in the living God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 92 by polonius]

RESPONSE: THe Book of Revelation is fictional.

Is the book of Revelation fact or fiction?
viewtopic.php?t=34211

As succinctly put by one writer "The book of Revelation contains a number of visions, which John received and recorded. Visions are neither fact nor fiction, but communications from God about spiritual realities, usually conveyed by metaphors that are not to be taken literally."

And who really wrote Revelations? Not the Apostle John!

Revelation is neither fact nor fiction but is as described by the writer you quoted.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]

"What in Revelation tells you that the great crowd will live on the earth?"

Reply:

With the background already covered in the Old Testament, which tells of what the earth will be like during the reign of the Messiah--God's appointed King--such as Isaiah chapter 11, Micah 4:4, and numerous other passages, I knew that God intended for people to live on Earth forever (Psalm 37:9-11, 29 particularly interested me). So Revelation undoubtedly harmonizes with all those scriptures.

I read with interest Rev.5:10 which says that the people that go to heaven will "reign over the earth." (I have to say here that the word in Greek translated "over" in a handful of Bible versions that I have, is usually translated "on" by translators today, since the KJV. That word can be translated as either "on" or "over.") So I'm wondering what will the 144,000 be ruling over? Or WHO? Chapter 7 drew my interest. It describes the 144,000 who will be with the Lamb on heavenly Mt. Zion, and then another group of people "standing before the throne and before the Lamb." This group is apparently not included in the previous group of 144,000 sealed individuals.

One of the elders in heaven said to John, "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Verse 14.) It then occurred to me that these people, of a crowd of unnumbered individuals, were the ones who go through the Great Tribulation on earth, and come out of it unscathed. I think that to "come out" of something, one has to be IN it in the first place. So I considered it nonsense that Christians would be, as I was always taught as a Baptist, taken up to heaven before the G.T.

So it stands to reason that it is these people of the Great Crowd, as well as those resurrected to the earth during the Millennial Reign, that will make up the "nations in the four corners of the earth" which the Devil will attack at the end of the 1,000 years, "to mislead" them and get them to war against Jehovah, Jesus, and their people, on the earth. (Rev.20:7-9) Makes perfect sense to me now.

Then chapter 21 speaks of God's government reigning over the earth, and what glorious peace and happiness there will be.

I answered Checkpoint's question in the post above, but he never commented on it. Here it is, because I think he missed it.

Thanks for that. onewithhim.

I did miss it at the time, but then realised it existed, yet my subsequent search failed.

What you wrote was interesting and made sense to you but not to me.

Why not? For several reasons that stem from how I view Revelation.This is well put by a writer another poster quoted:

As succinctly put by one writer:

"The book of Revelation contains a number of visions, which John received and recorded. Visions are neither fact nor fiction, but communications from God about spiritual realities, usually conveyed by metaphors that are not to be taken literally."

I understand your reasoning, but prefer to see the great crowd where the verse put them, standing before the throne.

[2timothy316]

I understand your reasoning, but prefer to see the great crowd where the verse put them, standing before the throne.

One can be on the Earth an still be before the throne.

"This is what Jehovah says: The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool."" Isaiah 66:1. Compare Matt 5:34, 35.

No one puts a footstool behind a throne. According to Isaiah 66:1, if you're on Earth then there is no one that isn't before God's throne.

Those going to Heaven sit ON thrones. (Rev 20:4 and 3:21) There is no mention of the Great Crowd sitting on thrones.

[Checkpoint]

I understand your reasoning, but prefer to see the great crowd where the verse put them, standing before the throne.

One can be on the Earth an still be before the throne.

"This is what Jehovah says: The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool."" Isaiah 66:1. Compare Matt 5:34, 35.

No one puts a footstool behind a throne. According to Isaiah 66:1, if you're on Earth then there is no one that isn't before God's throne.

Those going to Heaven sit ON thrones. (Rev 20:4 and 3:21) There is no mention of the Great Crowd sitting on thrones.

Funny that. There is no mention of the Great Crowd being on earth either.

[2timothy316]

I understand your reasoning, but prefer to see the great crowd where the verse put them, standing before the throne.

One can be on the Earth an still be before the throne.

"This is what Jehovah says: The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool."" Isaiah 66:1. Compare Matt 5:34, 35.

No one puts a footstool behind a throne. According to Isaiah 66:1, if you're on Earth then there is no one that isn't before God's throne.

Those going to Heaven sit ON thrones. (Rev 20:4 and 3:21) There is no mention of the Great Crowd sitting on thrones.

Funny that. There is no mention of the Great Crowd being on earth either.

It doesn't have to. Those that study the Bible knows the purpose for the Earth and for mankind.

"For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited." Isaiah 45:18

"The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it." - Ps 37:29

"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, [not angels]and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them." Rev 21:3