What can we do to help blasphemers?

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marco
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What can we do to help blasphemers?

Post #1

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In Pakistan a university lecturer, Junaid Hafeez, 33, has been sentenced to death effectively for thinking. His prosecutors passed round sweets to celebrate the verdict. He has spent years in solitary confinement because he was constantly attacked in prison. His first lawyer was shot dead for defending him.

No man is an island, but perhaps the lecturer doesn't share Donne's view.

Should blasphemy be a crime? Given people somewhere in our "civilised" world are being condemned to be hanged for their words about religion should there be a system in place of condemnation and action to protect victimised fellow humans?

Or should we, in this case, just let Pakistan carry out her own laws without comment?

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Re: What can we do to help blasphemers?

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marco wrote:

Or should we, in this case, just let Pakistan carry out her own laws without comment?

Of course agencies do protest, possibly ineffectively. In this case there's a suggestion the man was set up by students who bore a grudge, which is possible. But even if he had the temerity to make adverse comments about Muhammad surely countries that deal with Pakistan and call the country an ally can exercise some leverage.

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Christians should take note!

While this type of religious authority is typically only seen today in Islamic countries, it wasn't that long ago that Christian societies did the same thing.

Even as recent as Isaac Newton's day to publicly dismiss the Christian dogma would have serious social consequences. You may not have been sentenced to jail or killed at that time, but you would be destroyed socially. And the further back we go in history the more violent Christians were against blasphemous positions. Go back far enough and you could easily find yourself being incarcerated, or even executed.

Christianity today has become extremely "watered-down" from its historical beginnings.

It's the same thing with Church attendance and tithes, etc. There were times in history when you could get into grave trouble with the authorities if you did not attend church, or refused to pay mandatory tithes. At one time the Church actually served as the Tax Collector.

Today we are free to attend church or not. We are free to offer up any amount of tithes we so desire, or none at all. Today tithes are totally voluntary donations. But back in a day they were mandatory, not only that you had to give tithes, but they even had to be a certain percentage of what you make. It was basically Income Tax.

So what Christians see in Islam today that they may not like, was actually common practice in Christianity not all that long ago.

Today's Christianity is but a mere ghost of what it used to be. Today it's just a watered-down personal belief system that no one is forced to accept. And it's also become a major source of scam income for many commercial Evangelists who prey on the gullibility of the masses.

What can we do to help blasphemers?

When it comes to religious beliefs, I don't think one nation is going to tell another nation what they need to believe. So if Pakistan wants to kill blasphemers there isn't much we can do about it other than saying that we disprove. That's basically all we can do.
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Post #4

Post by marco »

Divine Insight wrote:
When it comes to religious beliefs, I don't think one nation is going to tell another nation what they need to believe. So if Pakistan wants to kill blasphemers there isn't much we can do about it other than saying that we disprove. That's basically all we can do.

You are absolutely right in relating the present religious cruelty to similar acts in our Christian past. The same sort of minds were motivated by the same idea: God must not be insulted, nor his servants nor his utensils.

The poor apostate in Pakistan might just as well have been a scientist trying to dismiss a geocentric theory or fault a flat earth. If indeed the charges against him are correct then he stopped speaking like a child and put childish ideas aside, for which he is to be hanged. History repeats itself and people die, it seems, when it does so. The lesson we take from blasphemy in Pakistan is that much of the planet is ruled by ignorance and superstition, albeit in different colours.

Our liberal ideas in the west, sometimes extended into absurdity, were won from the flames of brave souls who tried to teach truth. Sadly, wisdom fashions a Kalashnikov and gives it to children to play with. I believe Pakistan, persecutor of blasphemies, is a nuclear power. God help us!

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Post by Divine Insight »

marco wrote: God must not be insulted, nor his servants nor his utensils.
Exactly. And why should this be with an actual God? Why should a God care about such petty egotistical things?

The entire Abrahamic religious theology, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were based on monarchical authoritarianism. You must respect the KING and do as he commands. Otherwise a feeble human government has no control over the masses.

A truly omnipotent omniscient God would never need to stoop to such helpless tactics. The whole religion is based on human helplessness, including the helplessness of those who wish to rule the world via their ultimate authority.

So the religion is based on human flaws and weakness, not on the basis of any truly omnipotent omniscient God.

Show disrespect for our authority and off with your head.

No omnipotent omniscient God would need to lower itself to such desperation.
marco wrote: ,... the planet is ruled by ignorance and superstition, albeit in different colours.
Fortunately many human civilizations have evolved to a higher level. Thus was born the Free Democracies. They have already proven themselves to be far greater than totalitarian monarchies. Unfortunately some of those Free Democracies like the USA are about to lose their democratic freedom and revert back to becoming an authoritarian dictatorship ruled by the KING who no longer needs to answer to "We the People" (i.e. the Congress). When the Congress loses power free democracy is dead. So the USA may soon be reverting to the ignorance and superstitious totalitarian rule right before our very eyes.
marco wrote: Our liberal ideas in the west, sometimes extended into absurdity, were won from the flames of brave souls who tried to teach truth. Sadly, wisdom fashions a Kalashnikov and gives it to children to play with.
The real irony is that they end up shooting themselves in their own feet with it.

marco wrote: I believe Pakistan, persecutor of blasphemies, is a nuclear power. God help us!
Asking a God to help us is most likely a futile dream. If a caring God existed it's highly unlike that it would have just stood by and done nothing while humans carried out atrocities against each other throughout all of history. I'm sure the pain and suffering of being burned alive on a stake is no more enjoyable then being slowly burned alive from nuclear radiation, or being tortured and starved to death in an enemy concentration camp.

Thinking that a God would suddenly give a hoot about nuclear warfare when he never gave a hoot before about human suffering is probably the greatest superstitious dream ever.

Why would a God draw the line with nuclear war? Because a greater number of people will suffer and die? So what? If an individual human is worth protecting, then surely billions of them aren't worth protecting either. Why draw the line at a bunch of humans if even one isn't worth protecting in God's eyes? :-k

Yep, when it comes to nuclear war our fate rests solely on human sanity. And that appears to be a very rare commodity in today's world. Most nuclear powers don't launch nuclear weapons simply because of the fear factor that then will then suffer the same fate being launched against them.

Give ONE leader of a nuclear nation the idea that they could launch a nuclear attack on their enemies and survive the event and there will be nothing stopping them from doing so.

And keep in mind, all they need to have is "the idea" that they could get away with it. Being able to recognize that it's a "bad idea" may never cross their mind.

Look at criminals who rob banks with virtually no chance of getting away with the crime. Why did they do it? Because they had "the idea" that they could get away with it. They won't recognize that it was a "bad idea" until they are sitting in jail and have time to think about it in retrospect.

With nuclear war, recognizing that it was a "bad idea" after the fact is quite a bit belated.

Yet, as you have revealed, in Pakistan they can't even recognize that killing people for blaspheme is a "bad idea". So we already know that they are incapable of recognizing bad ideas.

Hope you have a Nuke-Proof Basement. :D

Hoping that a God will help us is most likely useless.

Speaking of people who can't tell good ideas from bad, you are aware that Donald J. Trump once asked, "If we have nuclear bombs why aren't we using them?''

So Pakistan might not be the first nation to have a "bad idea" when it comes to launching nukes. We have someone who entertains bad ideas everyday in the Oval Office. :shock:
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Re: What can we do to help blasphemers?

Post #6

Post by Menotu »

marco wrote: In Pakistan a university lecturer, Junaid Hafeez, 33, has been sentenced to death effectively for thinking. His prosecutors passed round sweets to celebrate the verdict. He has spent years in solitary confinement because he was constantly attacked in prison. His first lawyer was shot dead for defending him.

No man is an island, but perhaps the lecturer doesn't share Donne's view.

Should blasphemy be a crime? Given people somewhere in our "civilised" world are being condemned to be hanged for their words about religion should there be a system in place of condemnation and action to protect victimised fellow humans?

Or should we, in this case, just let Pakistan carry out her own laws without comment?
We can comment all we want. I'm not for pushing my views on to others - particularly when they're in another country that myself. To make it worse, when a country is embedded in religious mumbo-jumbo as many are, it makes matter so much worse.
Is it sad? Wrong? Yes and yes.
My business?
No - I have my own causes on which to keep up.

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Re: What can we do to help blasphemers?

Post #7

Post by marco »

Menotu wrote:
Is it sad? Wrong? Yes and yes.
My business?
No - I have my own causes on which to keep up.
That's a refreshing show of altruism, Menotu. When Germany, a foreign country, was gassing children a lot of people adopted that same sentiment but there were those who risked their own lives to help. Here is John Donne from 17th century England:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
Or of thine own were:
Any man’s death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.


Go well.

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Re: What can we do to help blasphemers?

Post #8

Post by Menotu »

marco wrote:
Menotu wrote:
Is it sad? Wrong? Yes and yes.
My business?
No - I have my own causes on which to keep up.
That's a refreshing show of altruism, Menotu. When Germany, a foreign country, was gassing children a lot of people adopted that same sentiment but there were those who risked their own lives to help. Here is John Donne from 17th century England:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
Or of thine own were:
Any man’s death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.


Go well.
Eh - call it what you want. It's not my business what someone does to someone else on the other side of the planet unless they ask for my help/opinion.
For some, that's not part of their being.
Having been pushed around (for lack of a better term on this longest of days recently) most of my life by others on what I need to do, where I need to go, what's expected of me, etc etc etc, I made peace with the fact that everyone else is not my business (and I don't expect others to care what I do if it doesn't effect them) - especially when it's not solicited.
You can't save the whole world, only your own personal part of it.

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Re: What can we do to help blasphemers?

Post #9

Post by marco »

Menotu wrote:
You can't save the whole world, only your own personal part of it.
Well I am not going to preach altruism I cannot lay claim to myself. However, individuals have indeed shown solidarity. When the atrocity at Charlie Hebdo occurred in Paris, the declaration: "Je suis Charlie" , I am Charlie too, moved round the world.

Edmund Burke said: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.�

Some nice American defied orders and allowed Albert Einstein his visa to go to the safety of America. I'm sure that decision helped the world.

The world's story is brightened by the tales of little men becoming giants, and seeing much more than the few acres in which they live.

Had someone not interfered when Poland was attacked I might now be more proficient in German than I am.

On a poetic note, when I read dead Catullus and his warm sexuality and his love regrets I am momentarily part of ancient Rome, and I think, the better for it. When I watched with my students pictures of the Twin Towers being destroyed it did not seem the event was a few thousand miles away. It seemed and it felt that I was there.

But honesty is the first step towards knowledge, and I admire yours.

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Re: What can we do to help blasphemers?

Post #10

Post by Menotu »

[Replying to post 9 by marco]

Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say.
But your point is (well) received. It takes all kinds to make this world (again, as they say).
8-)

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