Denominations

[Menotu]

Under the Christian umbrella, there are many denominations believing in the same god. But they tend to have differing ways to get the same end result.

An outsider comes along and looking in with no bias (having never heard of such a concept), he says "Wait: if you believe in the same god, and want the same thing, why are you arguing among each other? Shouldn't the same god have told you all the same thing? Why all the different denominations?"

Once the outsider reads the four gospels, they will understand a bit more:
"Wait: your god talked to a few different guys over different years and told them the same story, but different?"
You may say "Well, it was interpreted differently by these different people."
The outsider would then say " OK, but this god...he didn't change his story yes? So why didn't he tell each of these people the same thing in a manner in which they would write the same thing? Even if it was a different writing style, the jest of the story would remain true, right?"

So the outsider already has his eyebrow raised in suspicion.

Then he sees all the different denomination and their specific means to the same end (once saved always saved, Purgatory, Hell, asking for constant forgiveness, Jesus reappearing in the Americas and South Africa, people ascending, Adam/Eve/Ruth, etc) and he asks you the following set of questions:

"How can you accept these differences from a god that, you indicated, hasn't changed?
Why do you have to have faith in all this confusion and, at times, contradiction, in order to have something to believe in?
Why can't your god provide to you - all of you - the same story that's believable, especially considering he can do anything he wants?
Why does your god allow all these denominations?"

Is there a definite answer other than "'cause God says" or the like?
Is there something that we can point to that says "My thinking is right because...."?
Or is it all a personal belief system?
And if that's the case, why all the concern over what others believe in (or not), how they live their lives and what they do in their families?

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 33 by Diagoras]

Wheres the value in that?

I suppose it depends on who is asked and what they value. If they value absolute truth, might not be much if any. if they value feeling good about themselves, then maybe there is some value

It gets us no closer to the truth.

That's not what religion does. Religion simply allows for like minds to find commonality on things of belief. It has nothing to do with the truth. Otherwise, it would be exact and precise. Which, we all know, it's not.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 34 by Clownboat]

You're funny!
Feel free to battle against your principalities, powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places.

In reality, you are dealing with flesh and blood though. The Scottsmans that you claim are not Christian or that they don't know scripture are actually real humans that identify as Christian. They are not principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places. That's just silly to think so IMO.

Job 1

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, From where have you come? Satan answered the Lord and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it. 8 And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face. 12 And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand. So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

This is why Satan is called the "Accuser of the Brethren". But notice that Satan is limited by God as to what he can do. The next section shows us what Satan has control over.

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 14 and there came a messenger to Job and said, The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans fell upon them and took them and struck down the servants[c] with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 17 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, The Chaldeans formed three groups and made a raid on the camels and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 18 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tell you.


Notice Satan can control people and events. The temptation for Job here was summed up by his wife who told Job to curse God and die. This is what Satan does he manipulates people and events to deceive people.


Nonsensical Bible verses not withstanding.

Jude 1:19 ESV
It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. (Flesh and blood)

if they are devoid of the Spirit

1 Corinthians 3:3 ESV
For you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Ephesians 2:1-3 tells us why people walk in the flesh.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1 Peter 3:15 ESV
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you (even flesh and blood) for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Yes, because it is the world fo God that changes the hearts of men. Hebrews 4:12.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
_________________

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 34 by Clownboat]

You're funny!
Feel free to battle against your principalities, powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places.

In reality, you are dealing with flesh and blood though. The Scottsmans that you claim are not Christian or that they don't know scripture are actually real humans that identify as Christian. They are not principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places. That's just silly to think so IMO.

Job 1

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, From where have you come? Satan answered the Lord and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it. 8 And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face. 12 And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand. So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

This is why Satan is called the "Accuser of the Brethren". But notice that Satan is limited by God as to what he can do. The next section shows us what Satan has control over.

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 14 and there came a messenger to Job and said, The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans fell upon them and took them and struck down the servants[c] with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 17 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, The Chaldeans formed three groups and made a raid on the camels and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 18 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tell you.


Notice Satan can control people and events. The temptation for Job here was summed up by his wife who told Job to curse God and die. This is what Satan does he manipulates people and events to deceive people.


Nonsensical Bible verses not withstanding.

Jude 1:19 ESV
It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. (Flesh and blood)

if they are devoid of the Spirit

1 Corinthians 3:3 ESV
For you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Ephesians 2:1-3 tells us why people walk in the flesh.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1 Peter 3:15 ESV
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you (even flesh and blood) for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Yes, because it is the world fo God that changes the hearts of men. Hebrews 4:12.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
_________________

Is this like when, in Middle-Earth, the Lord Sauron has an ability to exert his control through twenty magic rings of power? These twenty magic rings, when worn, can give its bearer a power to rule over their respective kingdoms. Three Rings were given to the Elf leaders in Middle-earth, seven Dwarf-lords each had a magic ring, and Nine Rings were worn by various leaders of Men. Meanwhile, the Lord Sauran secretly possessed one supreme magic ring that allowed him to control all who wore the other magic rings.

I like that story too.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 43 by bluegreenearth]

Is this like when, in Middle-Earth, the Lord Sauron has an ability to exert his control through twenty magic rings of power? These twenty magic rings, when worn, can give its bearer a power to rule over their respective kingdoms. Three Rings were given to the Elf leaders in Middle-earth, seven Dwarf-lords each had a magic ring, and Nine Rings were worn by various leaders of Men. Meanwhile, the Lord Sauran secretly possessed one supreme magic ring that allowed him to control all who wore the other magic rings.

I like that story too.

Actually, yes it is like that. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were both philosophers, Christians and friends. And yes he was describing how Satan has influence over people in his philosophical way.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 34 by Clownboat]

You're funny!
Feel free to battle against your principalities, powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places.

In reality, you are dealing with flesh and blood though. The Scottsmans that you claim are not Christian or that they don't know scripture are actually real humans that identify as Christian. They are not principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world and spiritual wickedness in high places. That's just silly to think so IMO.

Job 1

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, From where have you come? Satan answered the Lord and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it. 8 And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face. 12 And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand. So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

This is why Satan is called the "Accuser of the Brethren". But notice that Satan is limited by God as to what he can do. The next section shows us what Satan has control over.

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 14 and there came a messenger to Job and said, The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans fell upon them and took them and struck down the servants[c] with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 17 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, The Chaldeans formed three groups and made a raid on the camels and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you. 18 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tell you.


Notice Satan can control people and events. The temptation for Job here was summed up by his wife who told Job to curse God and die. This is what Satan does he manipulates people and events to deceive people.


Nonsensical Bible verses not withstanding.

Jude 1:19 ESV
It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. (Flesh and blood)

if they are devoid of the Spirit

1 Corinthians 3:3 ESV
For you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Ephesians 2:1-3 tells us why people walk in the flesh.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1 Peter 3:15 ESV
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you (even flesh and blood) for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Yes, because it is the world fo God that changes the hearts of men. Hebrews 4:12.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
_________________

If you were born in Iran, you would be quoting the Quran at me and defending a different god concept with different religious promotional material. This also would not be impressive.

So for this reason, your story time above does not resonate with me. Like how stories from other religious promotional material doesn't resonate truth to you.

You know this to be true, yet like the Muslims, you have nothing but stories from your holy book.

I have read the book and grew up as a street evangelizing, drunk in the holy ghost tongue talking Christian. Oddly enough, it was reading the book on my own that started my disbelief.
(After almost 2 decades of my beliefs being dictated to me).

Read the book and form your own opinion is what people should do. Story time like above is not a reliable mechanism for determining what is true and my claim that "in reality, you are dealing with flesh and blood" is still true until any gods can be shown to be involved. As soon as you do your part (if you can) I will retract my claim.




In reality, you are dealing with flesh and blood though.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 45 by Clownboat]

If you were born in Iran, you would be quoting the Quran at me and defending a different god concept with different religious promotional material. This also would not be impressive.

Maybe, but there is also a good chance that I would still be Christian because of the revival that is taking place in the middle east.
https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/53 ... down-islam

For years Christians have been praying for the 10/40 window and now it looks like God is answering those prayers.

So for this reason, your story time above does not resonate with me. Like how stories from other religious promotional material doesn't resonate truth to you.

You know this to be true, yet like the Muslims, you have nothing but stories from your holy book.

The difference between Christianity and all other religions is Christians do not have to work for their salvation. Their salvation is by the grace of God. Muslims have to do enough good works to earn their way to heaven. Every part of salvation is by the power of God.

Our desire to become a Christian is from God.
The prayer of forgiveness that we pray is from God.
Our perseverance to remain a Christian is from God.

There is no other religion in the world like Christianity.

I have read the book and grew up as a street evangelizing, drunk in the holy ghost tongue talking Christian. Oddly enough, it was reading the book on my own that started my disbelief.
(After almost 2 decades of my beliefs being dictated to me).

I am a bit confused as to how you could be street evangelizing and leading people to Christ an not know the Book.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

There could be no conviction of sin without knowing the word of God.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 45 by Clownboat]

If you were born in Iran, you would be quoting the Quran at me and defending a different god concept with different religious promotional material. This also would not be impressive.

Maybe, but there is also a good chance that I would still be Christian because of the revival that is taking place in the middle east.
https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/53 ... down-islam

For years Christians have been praying for the 10/40 window and now it looks like God is answering those prayers.

So for this reason, your story time above does not resonate with me. Like how stories from other religious promotional material doesn't resonate truth to you.

You know this to be true, yet like the Muslims, you have nothing but stories from your holy book.

The difference between Christianity and all other religions is Christians do not have to work for their salvation. Their salvation is by the grace of God. Muslims have to do enough good works to earn their way to heaven. Every part of salvation is by the power of God.

Our desire to become a Christian is from God.
The prayer of forgiveness that we pray is from God.
Our perseverance to remain a Christian is from God.

There is no other religion in the world like Christianity.

I have read the book and grew up as a street evangelizing, drunk in the holy ghost tongue talking Christian. Oddly enough, it was reading the book on my own that started my disbelief.
(After almost 2 decades of my beliefs being dictated to me).

I am a bit confused as to how you could be street evangelizing and leading people to Christ an not know the Book.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

There could be no conviction of sin without knowing the word of God.

You are no different then the Muslim (and most other religious people) and I'm sure the readers here realize the similarities.
You both place faith in a holy book. That there are differences between religions is not impressive and need not be mentioned as it is an expected result.

The rest of what you say is preaching and need not be addressed.

I was just hoping you would understand as to why your unevidence proclomations are ineffective here in debate. They are ineffective in the same way you are not convinced by stories told in the Quran.

My god can beat up your god or my religion is better than yours or there is no other religion in the world like Christianity is a childish argument IMO. At least ineffective you must agree...

Certainly not gods are shown to be involved.