Is God logically possible?

[atheist buddy]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

[arian]

Sin is punishable by death, any and all sin. God doesn't spare anyone. His Son was perfect, and even here on earth He committed no sin, but because He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He was punished just like anyone else. As I said, the punishment for sin is death, and boy was He punished, all for us.

If God exercised His Justice alone, we would all be burning in hell for eternity. But instead, while He upheld perfect Justice, He shown his Mercy through offering His own Son.

Ah. I see.

So God is like a judge who says this:

"I don't care what you did. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're a murderer, a rapist a thief or a liar, or if you just jaywalked one time. I don't care if you're a good person who just made some mistakes. I don't care if you're the single most compassionate, kind and generous person in the world. I will kill you. KIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL YOU!!!!!!! I will throw you in a dark place infested by demons, I will have you tortured for ever and ever in a lake of fire, and you will suffer a pain beyond your puny mind's ability to comprehend for all of eternity.

Well, .. you really should read the Bible because you are understanding it backwards. You are looking at Gods justice from the end, 6,000 years after the fall.
How about starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request, not a law, a request from two healthy perfect beings with no history of emotional problems, or child abuse, or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, no bills to pay, no job loss, no divorces, no need to consider abortion, no wars or rumors of wars, never even known what sickness and disease was, didn't even experienced a little fever .. no problems whatsoever, and only ONE request; Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Was she hungry and just couldn't find food?
Nope.
was the fruit so much more appetizing then all the other fruits?
Nope, she even had to convince herself that it was edible, not something gross. "Yea, it looks pretty good, good enough to eat!?"

You see, so don't make God out to be the monster here buddy. I'm sure even an atheist like you expect your kids to fulfill One teeny weeny request, just one, which if broken could kill them? But then all atheists think differently!? so I don't know, .. maybe even that's too demanding!?!? Your children might call you a "moral Monster" right? "Do as thou wilt kids!" is that it? I'm just asking?

BUT

I have a son who is really really nice (It's actually me in disguise). If you agree to beat up my son, then feel guilty for having beaten him up, and agree with me that he is a really really nice guy, then I'll let you come live with us in my mansion. I don't care if you are a murderer, rapist, thief or witch. As long as you beat up my son, feel sorry and say he's awesome, you get to live in my mansion instead of being tortured forever."

That's your interpretation of a loving, just and merciful God? Really?

Not even close. That is what most Christian Religions would like you to think, .. you know, to keep you coming back, .. keep you trembling, not questioning.

No disguise, God cannot be seen and no one has ever seen God, but we can see and touch the Son. Again, you are talking from religious pov, and I do not.

And the guilt should be our sins, not like today, being all proud of all the wickedness that is going on, even boasting about it. Lady Gaga does a wonderful job mocking what she has absolutely no idea of. I guess it's the meat she wears going bad and effecting her brain or something, because that is just not normal. Well, .. unless I was a very religious atheist, I might call it 'art', .. lol.

Also, it was our sins that beat the Son, and every time we sin no matter if you are a murderer, rapist, thief, witch, or the nicest guy in the universe, if you sin, it has contributed to His beating and suffering. Our sins nailed Him to the cross.

And no, .. you do not get to Heaven beating the Son (sinning), what demented church or cult taught you that? Did you attend some school of Atheism or something? I mean I have visited some atheist Debating Forums and I tell you they all talk like you just did. When I started to show them facts, they banned me even though many members were eager to hear more from me. They said over and over again that they never heard anyone non-religious, who was an atheist (as I am, since I don't believe that any of the religiously created gods are God) reveal God in the way I do.
I guess that's why the Moderators kicked me off, I was revealing God, the truth and people were starting to listen. Ironically the forum was called; the Happy Atheist Forum
I guess an atheist is only 'happy' when he is in his own little "There is no God, .. there is no God!" neverland, .. who knows?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 36:

...
There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request
...
Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

Well, let's see 'bout that...

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

I'm here to tell it, the telling folks either they do as I say, or they die, well that's terroristic language we most commonly find coming from terroristic terrorists.

Alas, to the religious, that ain't nothing but a "itsy bitsy teeny weeny request".

I reckon it's a itsy bitsy teeny weeny line twixt, "You either do what I say, or I'ma gon' kill ya", and "If you do what I say, well I'll make kittens the ruler of the internet".

[atheist buddy]

Sin is punishable by death, any and all sin. God doesn't spare anyone. His Son was perfect, and even here on earth He committed no sin, but because He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He was punished just like anyone else. As I said, the punishment for sin is death, and boy was He punished, all for us.

If God exercised His Justice alone, we would all be burning in hell for eternity. But instead, while He upheld perfect Justice, He shown his Mercy through offering His own Son.

Ah. I see.

So God is like a judge who says this:

"I don't care what you did. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're a murderer, a rapist a thief or a liar, or if you just jaywalked one time. I don't care if you're a good person who just made some mistakes. I don't care if you're the single most compassionate, kind and generous person in the world. I will kill you. KIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL YOU!!!!!!! I will throw you in a dark place infested by demons, I will have you tortured for ever and ever in a lake of fire, and you will suffer a pain beyond your puny mind's ability to comprehend for all of eternity.

Well, .. you really should read the Bible because you are understanding it backwards. You are looking at Gods justice from the end, 6,000 years after the fall.
How about starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request, not a law, a request from two healthy perfect beings with no history of emotional problems, or child abuse, or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, no bills to pay, no job loss, no divorces, no need to consider abortion, no wars or rumors of wars, never even known what sickness and disease was, didn't even experienced a little fever .. no problems whatsoever, and only ONE request; Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Was she hungry and just couldn't find food?
Nope.
was the fruit so much more appetizing then all the other fruits?
Nope, she even had to convince herself that it was edible, not something gross. "Yea, it looks pretty good, good enough to eat!?"

Let me get this straight. So Adam and Eve ate an apple, and all of their descendants deserve to be tortured for eternity as a price?

For EATING AN APPLE?

And that's fair to you?


Also, before eating from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, Adam and Eve HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. BEcause they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, yet!

Therefore they had no way of knowing that it was wrong to disobey God.

It's like if I wrote "DON'T READ THIS SENTENCE OR I WILL KILL YOU".

You have no way of knowing that you shouldn't have read the sentence until you read it.

Similarly, Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that it was wrong to eat from the tree, until they ate from the tree.

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to do the right thing.

Punishing somebody for a crime that they couldn't possibly know was a crime is evil.

[Danmark]

And secondly you are implying that this supposedly omniscient perfect God is a complete buffoon ....
....
Christendom itself has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Bible is totally incomprehensible and could only have been inspired by a single supernatural buffoon, or by many individual mortal superstitious buffoons. The latter conclusion is the most reasonable of course.

Moderator Warning

DI, I hope you will permit me a personal note here. You are my friend and one of the best debaters on this site. You and I are in agreement on most if not all issues. But it is uncivil to refer to this God [whom both of us believes does not exist] as a "buffoon." Even if I am wrong, and the "buffoon God" reference is fair comment in a debate, it is uncivil to refer to those who believe in God as "superstitious buffoons."
Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[arian]

From Post 36:

...
There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request
...
Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

Well, let's see 'bout that...

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

I'm here to tell it, the telling folks either they do as I say, or they die, well that's terroristic language we most commonly find coming from terroristic terrorists.

Ah yes, Ahhmid my favorite puppet terrorist.

But you see it is Adam and Eve that committed suicide. Like fish jumping out of the fishbowl, luckily the Lord our God sent his Son to put them back. Sure the shock of a water-breather breathing air is a death sentence to the flesh, but the soul is saved. God prepared a newer, better body that even the most terrorizing terrorist (Satan) can't destroy.

Alas, to the religious, that ain't nothing but a "itsy bitsy teeny weeny request".

Ah come on Joey, it's a simple request: "OK kids, I prepared everything possible for you, to fulfill every enjoyment your little hearts desire. An entire universe is yours, .. one itsy bitsy teeny weeny request; 'Don't (hashtag) kill yourselves!?'"

And what did the woman do? She listened to the Devil while texting (I really don't know what was going on in her mind? But talking to my teen aged daughter when texting, .. I could convince her on just about anything. "Huh, .. yea dad, ok, .. right, .. got you!")
Here is Eve: "Huh, .. killing myself will make me wise like God? OK, not that I'm hungry or anything, I got all the fruit I ever want, .. but umm, yea, .. wisdom sounds good! OMG, .. LOL, .. BFF, .. K?" And then she takes a selfie with the snake as she's eating the fruit! "OMG, .. I just got to send this to Adam!"
What does Adam do? Runs there: "What, where? Hey, I want some, .. come on don't eat all of it!"

Wait, .. hey come on now, .. so who is religious, me? Ouch, .. that hurt.

I reckon it's a itsy bitsy teeny weeny line twixt, "You either do what I say, or I'ma gon' kill ya", and "If you do what I say, well I'll make kittens the ruler of the internet".

No, .. more like: "You separate yourself from Me, you on your own kids! And without Me, things will get real tough. So please don't. I'll come and visit you personally every evening at about this time and we'll talk, any questions you have, My wisdom is at your command. Google Me and see if I can't answer you? Ask me anything, I will explain it to you. There is no one wiser than your Daddy. Of course, if you find someone create a better world and a better universe then this one I gave you and put you in, or be a better and more loving Daddy then Me, you are free to go and check him out."

Sheesh.. the same old serpent-trick works even now; "For three easy payments of $49.95 for my 'SECRET WISDOM' kit, I guarantee you that you will be richer than you ever imagined. You will be able to buy your dream Yacht, your dream ocean-view home, that Ferrari you always dreamed of, you can have all my wisdom I have accumulated over a small part of eternity that made me so rich I own the whole world, .. As Seen On TV's Rich and Famous! So Trust ME! Here is what one third of the Angels who used to be in Heaven have to say, here, read their testimonies for yourself!"

[arian]

Well, .. you really should read the Bible because you are understanding it backwards. You are looking at Gods justice from the end, 6,000 years after the fall.
How about starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request, not a law, a request from two healthy perfect beings with no history of emotional problems, or child abuse, or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, no bills to pay, no job loss, no divorces, no need to consider abortion, no wars or rumors of wars, never even known what sickness and disease was, didn't even experienced a little fever .. no problems whatsoever, and only ONE request; Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Was she hungry and just couldn't find food?
Nope.
was the fruit so much more appetizing then all the other fruits?
Nope, she even had to convince herself that it was edible, not something gross. "Yea, it looks pretty good, good enough to eat!?"

Let me get this straight. So Adam and Eve ate an apple, and all of their descendants deserve to be tortured for eternity as a price?

For EATING AN APPLE?

And that's fair to you?

Man chose to taste death, or evil which is death. Actually the woman and the man, husband and the wife, the father and the mother of all human children. I have no idea how it would have been if only Eve took of the fruit? But if both the original father and mother is stung by death, so goes the whole family of man.

But Jesus did not sin, so He brought life to all mankind. One brought death, and one brought life, sounds fare to me!

Also, before eating from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, Adam and Eve HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. BEcause they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, yet!

Therefore they had no way of knowing that it was wrong to disobey God.

Here is where religion has perverted our minds with so many different divinations that we can't even see what the bible really said. Even I get pulled in at times to old religious preaching from ignorance. It was not about knowing right and wrong, that's crazy. Here, read it again;

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.

Does that sound like she don't know that it is wrong to eat from it? NO. She even tells the serpent. They didn't age, so they may have been in the Garden for a very long time, and must have past by that tree thousands of times, yet never took from it, or never touched it because God said not to.

It was when the serpent deceived Eve that she will not die, see?
As I said, look: "Evil is death" and "Good is Life"

So what Satan really said was that she will not really know evil, only Eve didn't catch it. If she did, she would have said: "What the hell should I go against my Fathers wishes if I will not know the evil part (death), and that's what you're saying Satan, that I will not die, which is knowing the evil part. No thanks."

It's like if I wrote "DON'T READ THIS SENTENCE OR I WILL KILL YOU".

You have no way of knowing that you shouldn't have read the sentence until you read it.
Similarly, Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that it was wrong to eat from the tree, until they ate from the tree.

lol, .. no my friend, that would of been if God didn't warn them, and just let them eat from it without knowing.

Genesis 2:17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

"Of every tree" they may eat, twenty different apple trees, twenty different apples, they can eat all they want. But what was different about his particular fruit (apple) tree? It was the knowledge of good 'AND' evil. They knew only life/good, but pain suffering, .. evil/death they knew nothing of.

Eating fruit wasn't evil, the fruit wasn't evil, evil was pain and suffering and death. Would you consider yourself wiser if you could tell your grandkids all about pain, suffering and death? Would THEY be wiser by feeling, .. living this pain and suffering and death, or just knowing about it?

God told them "Don't!!!! Or you will Die!!"

The serpent said what?

Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

What is evil? Evil is death. What Satan actually said was; "you will know Good (life) and evil (Death) and by this man will be God."

I doubt with all my heart and all the wisdom given me that they must have understood what death was, it was the opposite of life. Why I believe this, because every one of us understands what death is, and NOT ONE of us experienced it.

Another lie was that experiencing death somehow would make them wiser? Please tell me if you told your 4 year old that; "Hey son, you want to get real wise? Put this gun against your head and pull the trigger!" and I'm sure your son would laugh at you and maybe even say: "Daddy, .. that's crazy! Stop it, not funny!"

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to do the right thing.

Punishing somebody for a crime that they couldn't possibly know was a crime is evil.

Yes, that would be evil. That's why God made it perfectly clear, don't even touch it. Like; "Don't go too close to the fire, you might get burnt!" .. "don't even touch it, don't take any chances, you may be playing with it, and the next thing you know you may take a bite from it."

Satan tricked them; "You will know good and evil (life and death as God said), .. but you will not surely die".

They died, and they got separated from God instead of becoming like Him.

It's not too late, we still have a chance for life, all of us. Just Take of the Tree of Life; Jesus Christ and live. "He that takes of Me (Jesus) shall live forever"

[Thunder9010]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15

You did fail to mention that Greek is not Hebrew and Hebrew is not Greek. 1 John and 1 Corinthians were written in Greek. Deuteronomy was written in Hebrew. We have every reason to expect that a lot of things get lost in the translation. What does God intend when he tells Israel that he is "a jealous God"? He's telling them to not worship any other gods. What is God's motivation in this warning?

I love my wife. On the other hand, I absolutely will not tolerate her running around sleeping with other men. We have both made it very clear that such behavior on either of our parts is not going to be tolerated. Does that understanding between us prove that we don't love truly love each other? Have we now proven that I am a contradictory being and that I don't exist?

Setting that aside, let's look at the words being used: " (qinah) is the word that is rendered "jealous" in our English Bibles. Strong's definition of the Hebrew word: ardor, zeal, jealousy. So the Hebrew " (qinah) encompasses all three of those concepts.

What is the Greek word? - (zlo). Strong's definition: To envy, be jealous. The context of the word in Greek is largely colored by the Greek god of envy, Phthonos, which generally casts the word in a more negative light.

I am by no means a language expert, but even I can see that while the Greek word is probably the best possible translation of the Hebrew word, the Hebrew word does not actually mean exactly the same thing. Kind of like love and lust, you have two words that are very close in meaning. One has a very positive connotation. The other has a very negative connotation. But both could be used to describe a exactly the same romantic feelings or experiences.

[Mudcat]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

Mudcat is a bassist
Bassists are not drummers
Mudcat is a drummer

At least this syllogism is true... and I think the logical conclusion would be that I can be more than one thing. If God exists, which I believe He does, I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

To the question. I think the Bible points to the notion that God is a multifaceted, complex being. I don't think multifaceted, complex beings violate the Law of Identity and are not logically contradictory.

[McCulloch]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

[arian]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

God is both good and evil, love and hate, forgiving and jealous.

"God is good"
"McCulloch is a good man"
"God is jealous when it comes to His children, He is a jealous God"
"McCulloch is jealous when it comes to his wife, he is a jealous man"
"God is love, because He will not tolerate his children whoring around committing adultery with other gods that are not even gods. He gets jealous of this. Not of the god that are not gods, but of us, created in His own image, and for us to bow down to idols is just not tolerable for Him."

Why is this so hard to understand is truly beyond me? And then to say that because of this self inflicted confusion, 'God is a logical impossibility'!?!?