Is God logically possible?

[atheist buddy]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

[arian]

What kind of justice system is that, .. to pay for your crimes, your sins?? Ah, .. I don't know, .. a just one?
I could go into greater detail to explain all this, but it would take too long. But tell me, what's better, or easier, to kill one of your sheep to show you are sorry, or be killed yourself, or maybe spend the rest of your life locked up in a cell?

Dude!
Listen!
You don't get it!

Yo Dude, Listen! I got it, but one of us don't, and I know it ain't me.

You've missed my point AGAIN... even though I've tried to make it very clear!
My objection in that case was NOT that god was not just! How can you not understand that?
Go back and read my comments again, and TRY to understand what I've actually writen!
The argument is: If god is just (as you claim he is) he CANNOT be perfectly mercifull! Because these two things contradict each other!
THAT was my argument! From the beginning! And you missed it again, and went on a speech about why something is just or not!
This doesn't matter to the point I've made!
I don't know how much clearer I can make that!

Yo, .. hold on dude, are you saying that if I shown pure unselfish love, and this is how you would know me by, that Odon is just a really nice guy, always showing compassion to others, helping those in desperate trouble even if it endangers his life, just an all around good and merciful guy.

Then one day you saw me on 8-mile Road and Woodward beating the hell out of a pimp who just beat his 17 year old ho to a bloody mess and she looks like road kill laying on the side of the road, that it just wouldn't make sense to you? That a nice and all around good guy couldn't loose it because it would be impossible? That this would somehow contradict logic itself?

Dude! The poor Detroit ho's (ladies of the night) would refer to me as the Angel of Mercy! Of course if I got caught, the Police would lock me up because I cut into their weekly bonus or something, but over all I would be considered as a merciful guy.

You cannot have absolute mercy without absolute justice! How in the world could I make you understand this? The two are inseparable.

But actually:
YES, depending on your crime you SHOULD go to prison!
Killing some animal is an idiotic way of punishment! And if you think it isn't, then I'm glad that you are not responsible for our justice system!

Lol, .. Dude! I grew up in Detroit, I KNOW a little about our 'justice system'. I would be facing life in prison while the pimp would be taken care of in the hospital so he could get back out there and work his hos. (I have no disrespect to the poor girls working the streets, it literally breaks my heart, and I personally knew some of them. I am just hoping this way I may get the message across to you more clearly?)

lol, .. what would YOU do with someone who beat, then repeatedly raped your wife/daughter for days, then suffocated her by fulfilling some perverted sexual fantasy? What if you found out he did this to other women/girls too? I ask so I would understand your version of mercy since you think my God, the God of the Bible is so 'Holy Cow' unmerciful?

Yeesss, of course!
Go straight to the most extreme case!

Most extreme? .. if I did that, you would gag!

Why? Why did you start with that example? Why not with something else, a smaller crime? Like stealing a chewing gum from a kiosk, or something like that?
Maybe is it, because then your gods "justice" system would suddenly look idiotic? Indefensible?
Picked up sticks on the sabbath?! STONE HIM!
Or at least kill a sheep for him, right?
Yeah, yeah... makes sense!

Does it look like I'm defending something indefensible? Do you think I'm using some pitiful excuse some preacher-man told me in my church? You think I would honor and serve a God that is even a quantum speck less than PERFECT? If so, then you must have been influenced way too much by religious indoctrinations.

I have argued with God, and continue to argue with Him, and I continue seeing Him as perfect. NOT, ... I repeat, it is NOT because it is a popular, or proper to refer to God as perfect, but I test Him at His Word. Sure I am terribly un-schooled and hard headed at that, but I place that on Him, .. not me. I expect God to work through that and convince me anyways.

Guess what, .. He did.

No, the law was clear: you do anything that resembles work on the Sabbath, you were to be stoned to death, front of the entire congregation which included children. You break the lesser commandments, you pay with something you own, like a dove or a lamb, .. this IS justice, and I defend it.

Also: You AGAIN missed the point!

It is you who is missing the point my friend. Think; "Perfect Justice, .. as in a Perfect and Holy God". Now since all things are IN God, how could anything, even a quantum speck of rebellion exist within a Perfect and holy God?

What you describe (even though you make a terrible case for your understanding of fairness and justice) is that your god is JUST! But you prove by that, that he is not mercifull, because if you have mercy, you forgive the wrong-doings!
You can't have both. And you actually make my point here.

Have you ever seen the scale of justice? Gods is a perfect scale, down to a quantum speck. If you take even a quantum speck from one side, it tilts, and God requires it put back. God is not lopsided like the gods you are referring to, He is perfect.

Some sins weigh more than others, but of course you have to have a deeper understanding of good and evil, and it's long term implications to see this. And I tell you, eternity is very long, so anything less than perfect won't do, or allowed in Gods eternal Kingdom.

To correct the imbalance, God uses justice and mercy.

Of course He didn't have this problem when He was alone God, but having kids can mess things up, even we know this. Having a bunch of little-gods running around thinking they're God can be challenging even to our Heavenly Father. Good thing He is a loving Father, with eternal patience ay?

Seems like everyone on this earth thinks they could be more merciful than our Creator, yet I myself seen and been subjected to such injustice and cruelty throughout my life that would make your hair in the back of your head stand up, and you know what? Not one of those horrors I suffered was by the hand of God.

Noooo, of course not.
Your god just stood by and watched. He didn't act himself, he just didn't do anything to stop it.

He did act, and I explained this to you, only you thought I was preaching or something and didn't pay much attention.

What you want to make God out to be is exactly what people mistakenly hate Him for, to be right there watching and acting upon every little move that we make, .. every little thing that goes on in our lives, every word we say, every text we text, every movie we watch, every friend we have. Is that how you raise your children (assuming you have some)? Like a totalitarian monster setting up cameras everywhere in their rooms, watching their every move?

Well rejoice because that's exactly what's happening with this new god of the world, he has everyone watched so he could accuse us. Are you OK with that? Or you'll just blame God for this too?

God does His part, less-interfering with our free will. He mourns for our continuous rebellion against His wishes, and then patiently bears our blasphemy against Him, .. till He says; "enough you little devils, I had enough of your wickedness and insubordinations, your complaints! You rebel against my laws, and when I lift them and give you my Only Begotten Son to even things out, you bitch and moan that I'm not there when you get hurt. Well I am there, but you keep yanking your hand away from my guidance, and then when you get hurt, you curse ME, .. your God and loving Father!"

You know why I know that I'm more mercifull than that monster you worship?
Because if I could, I would have helped you. I would have stepped in. I wouldn't have just let the injustice happend and said "Yeah, you go on, you criminal, do your bad action. But I will punish you LATER!"

You would have helped me? Well that's kind of you, except reality dictates otherwise. You are me, and I am you. Everyone on this site is us, we, I, me, and everyone in the town I grew up in, the surrounding towns, the Christian churches that my parents and siblings belong to which were all over the world including all the European countries were the; "I would have helped". And yes my friend, maybe you would have, but it didn't happen. They all, town after town, city after city we moved to, "they just let injustice happen and said to themselves; "Yeah, go on, you criminal, do your bad action, God will punish you later!"

THAT'S what your god apparently does, all day long, each day! Sit back, do nothing, even though he had the power to stop it, and just says "Yep, you'll be punished later. AFTER you've done these horrific crimes..."
Don't try to paint your god with the brush of innocence! If he has seen the terrible things happen to you, and didn't do anything to stop it, he is JUST as guilty as the person who did the horrible acts to you!

Have you ever set your mind along with friends to do something bad? You know, get drunk, get a little high and do something stupid? Well I was surrounded by so-called friends like that. And when I saw that their act could harm somebody, I would step in and say NO. I would start explaining to them that this is just wrong, and before you know it there is this guilty feeling that overcomes them, they bow their head in shame and the plan was over.

Why? Who? How?

Like I said, God is constantly correcting us, chastening us, even punishing us, but a truly evil person, or people in general can just ignore all this and when things happen, they blame God. "Why didn't God stop me? Why didn't he break my leg or something before I did this or that stupid thing?"

"Oh, yea, .. He did, (snicker, snicker..) and I remember cursing Him for it too."

Sorry friend, but God will not become what people including yourself erroneously hate Him for; a totalitarian monster. He gives us more than enough help to be able to care for each other. But who do people worship, .. just go to any Lady-Gaga or the other Illuminati Deva concerts and you will see. It's no longer hidden. Then watch the tattoo parlors fill up after the concert as girls as young as ten go in with their mommy to get a satanic-symbol tattooed permanently on their bodies, .. just like their idols.

Actually, men appeared many times to save me, then disappeared. Now I know God sent them. And that was just me, I know billions have suffered also.

Yep... and sometimes god sents men to help you, and sometimes he doesn't.
You know what? I would sent men ALL THE TIME! (If I had the power)
Which makes me morally superior to your god!
And you would do the same thing, I hope, which makes you morally superior too!

If YOU could, why would you just 'send men to help me all the time'? Why not just zap every person that does evil with a bolt of lightning? Better yet, if you are all knowing, zap them before they even do anything bad, you know, like this 'Pre-Crime' they are boasting about for the New World Order.

It's like; "Yea, just because you didn't do it yet you little bastard, but you were thinking it, I saw you! I KNOW ALL THINGS" ZAP! .. ZAP! .. ZAP!

No, God is Love, and He is patient hoping to save everyone. And since we all sinned, we'd be all ZAPPED! I like Gods way much better, and if you understood, you would too.

So please, tell me how mercy is really supposed to be outside of this unmerciful, and cruel Bible God that you make out to be the cause of all the suffering on this earth? I am very interested to hear?

HE CAN'T!!!!
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT!
Thanks for making it for me!!!

He is doing His best, and He solved everything, .. it's us. Cant make people love each other, that wouldn't be fare. You would complain; "No free will! No free will!"
OK, .. again;
I asked how YOU would cure all the suffering, since you are convinced God can't? Lets say you were given Gods Power and infinite abilities just like God, so please tell us how you would solve humanities inhumanity and love one another? I'm sure even God Himself would like to hear this! I know I would!

But wait, maybe that wasn't cruelty at all, it's the way evolution is, the way things are. We are to forgive and forget. We don't need punishment for crimes right?

Of course we do!
Where did I say ANYTHING ELSE?

God punishes, and you say since God is Merciful, He shouldn't be able to punish. How else would He be merciful to the victims other than to punish the criminals?

It's not like 70 million people were killed, many tortured to death, starved just in this last World War, right?

Yep. These horrible things happend. And guess who (according to your believe system) watched and let it all happen, even though he had the power to stop it?
Your god.
Even if he existed, he would be an immoral monster, who rather watches and does nothing (or "sents men"... meaning, that you just attribute acts of good, but limited people to your god, who could have stopped it all together)!

I was taking your side;
* There is no God
* an All-powerful God could in no way exist where He was all-Just and all-Merciful at the same time

so I asked; how is it we have all these wars, all this injustice? And if you had Almighty Power, how would you deal with it?

Yes He IS 'unchanging', you will never convince Him that good is evil, and that evil is good.

Wow, you seemed to have witnessed a lot of injustice by the hand of this Bible God. Like Jim Jones in Jonestown Guyana right? Yep, .. even atheists charge God of the Bible for all those deaths. You know, the One they swear don't exist.

You know what a "hypothetical scenario" is?
It means to accept a certain premisse (like "the biblical god exists") and apply it to a certain real scenario.
I don't believe in your god, but even if I did, he would be a moral monster, as described above.
But I don't believe in him.
I blame the actual people who do these acts. And I blame them, and despise their irrational, unsupported believes in a deity, which they don't dare to question, just because they have defined him into being supperior to them! Just as you have!
You have no basis to call your god just or good. Even if he existed, he clearly wouldn't be any of this.

You still don't get it.
In YOUR scenario you don't believe in God, right? Now whether there is a God or not, we both agree there is evil in this world where we have to have laws, prisons, police, judges that will consider a case and have mercy on whom he sees deserve mercy and judgment on those he finds evil deserving of prison and even death, .. are we one on this so far?

So what is the problem? You yourself said it's the people, correct? OK then. But once we introduce God of the Bible into the picture, you blame God since He is supposedly All Powerful and can do anything, .. right?

So I set a stage where you become God, with all the power that you and I agree God has. I did this so before you go blaming God for being a moral monster, how would you handle the evil in this world?

You then turn back and keep blaming God again. Show me, or show God how you would handle this world if you were Him, I'm sure He is listening?

But you have convinced yourself that he not only exists, but that he HAS to be the model of perfection and absolute goodness... which forces you to make horrible, inhumane excuses, because on a certain level you understand, that the world we live in and a good, powerfull god are not reconcilable. And this scares me. It scares me to see, how religious believes can make regular, nice people defend the most horrible ideas of "justice" and "goodness".

You seem like a nice guy Freddy, so for argument sake, how would you handle it. Let's just make you the President of the world, OK? You rule.

I have repeatedly explained to you that Perfect Justice could not exist without perfect Mercy. Lets play this out and see if you could somehow devise a system where you could fix the worlds problem by giving up one of the problematic attributes; either mercy, or justice?
Tell me, or show me how you could rule using only one of these? You pick.

Explain to me justice without mercy, or mercy without justice?

Didn't I already explain these things?
Justice is the proper application of just and fair rules, which means punishments for wrong doing.

Mercy is the oposite. It's the suspension of the necessary and fair punishment. Therefore an entity can't be absolutly just and absolutly mercifull at the same time... which makes your god impossible, since he apparently is both.

I asked this many times, but let me put it in another way: if a judge had only mercy, could he be a 'good' judge? Would he be a 'merciful judge'?

No. Not if you are a rational person, because a merciful-only judge would be a moral monster. There would be no justice, nor mercy for the victims.

Because Gods justice and mercy is perfect, or absolute, He is the Perfect Judge. His ways are all good and dealt with Love. No one will be able to have an excuse on that last Day because of Gods absolute Mercy and Justice.

Where the heck you get that 'absolute mercy' could not be just? How can mercy even exist without justice? What would it even mean, .. mercy on what?

You do the crime, God says you must pay. You pay, God extends His mercy. God is not stupid where He just let's people get away with murder. You must pay, or have someone bail you out, either you pay the debt, or have the bailer pay the debt for you. Crime-punishment-recompense-mercy, .. like that. God has perfected this for our sakes. But of course, if someone comes to bail us out, we don't have to accept it, and God would never force us to either.

(I told you it would take long to explain it all)
But since our sins are so great and numerous, we could never make perfect restitution. Even our life is tainted and unacceptable to God for payment. So God came up with a plan, and I am sure you know what that is.
The Bail bonds man is here knocking at every prison cell. We are all condemned men. What will it be? We can tell Him to get lost, or accept His "Get Out of Jail Free" card and experience Gods perfect justice and mercy at the same time.

Got it, .. no God, no devil and no hell, and this is all God of the Bibles fault, right?

Ha?
It's the god's fault that there is no god?
What?

So far every debate seems to be about that, no God, yet He is a moral monster. God is this and God is that all from those that don't even believe in Him! Hypothetical my behind, no one would spend an entire lifetime (as many atheists do) to berate a hypothetical God. Not even one days worth of debate on something they truly believed is just hypothetical.

I mean... I doubt that your hell, exists in the first place, but even if it did, I doubt that anybody choses to go there.

No one (not that I know of anyways) plans to go to prison either, yet I know prisons exist, and that they are packed.

Yes. And yet the prisoners don't chose to go there. They get sent against their will.
So even your analogy proves the point that people don't chose to go to jail/hell, they get sent there.

I don't speed because the cops make me do it. God doesn't make people sin, I speed because I want to, and people sin because they also choose to. We all know what we're doing, and the consequences it brings with it. The cop may not catch me for the first few times, but God records all sin because He is just. Knowing this, people still choose hell. I mean we're on death row already, and people still continue to sin and deny Jesus the bail bonds man!?!
So Yes, they do choose to go to hell.

Being all powerful is not a contradiction in itself. God created man, as children of God (little gods) with no problem. But we are 'created'. Once God the Creator creates something, it automatically becomes the created. Think of eternity, or infinity, there cannot be other infinites or eternals, because then eternal and infinite is not eternal and infinite.

And again, you miss the point completly!
Let me make a very simple analogy:
Can god create a rock, that is too heavy for himself to lift?
If yes, he isn't all powerfull, because he couldn't lift the rock.
If no, then he isn't all powerfull, because there is something he can't create.
Omnipotence (all-powerfullness) is an internally contradictary quality.

What you ask is contradictory to God Himself. It's like asking if I could walk not walking, see not seeing, build a car without building a car etc. and I can prove it.

Think of a rock.
you got it?
Now make the rock in your mind as big as the entire world.
Got it?
Now make it as big as the entire universe.
Got it?
Now ten universes.
Got it?
Now create a little box, and put this ten-universe size and weight into that box.
Got it?
Did you have any problems?

This is our God, only without the physical body. He is an Infinite, Eternal, Creative mind who is "I Am Who I Am". There is nothing He cannot do, or become something He is NOT, for He IS. Just like you in your mind, God can lift no matter how big the rock He created is.

You are asking what God cannot do, ask the Devil, he'll tell you a bunch of things he cannot do. But as for God, He can do anything and everything. He is a can-do God, not a cannot-do god.

Absolutely. I tend to jump ahead to make my point, but I guess this could be taken wrong, even offensive. My fault and I apologize.

It's fine.
I tent to move rather slowely through these discussions, but it's because I don't want to miss or jump ahead.
That's why you can really just take the things I write by their word.
Don't interprete more into it than I've actually writen, just take what I've writen as they stand. Sometimes, this might include stating something you might consider obvious, but be asured: In these conversations, there usually isn't much we all take equally for granted. That's why we have to build these things up from the absolut basis.

Thank you my friend, and I am so glad you understand. Everything you say here has been debated before, some many, many times before as you can clearly see by the number of posts some people here have written.

I tend to jump when I believe I know what you're getting at, and this is bad on my part. As you can see now, I too have slowed down, and try to build up with you. Thanks for the reminder, you are absolutely right that you may be someone out of the ordinary, and I should treat each conversation as if the first time.

I also ask you my friend to read and re-read what I say, because I am not speaking from some religious doctrine. So please, even if what I say differs from what you read in dictionaries, commentaries, see if it doesn't make sense to you before you just write it off. Sometimes our brain can only accept what has been programmed there, by schooling, parents, teachers, ministers etc. This is why I said: "Use your mind" because the mind is without boundaries. It is of God, actually it is a piece of God. This is the 'image' of God we were created in.

Take care, and I ask my God to bless you. You don't have to accept it, or deny it, just let it ride, .. ok? So if things I said start making sense to you, why fight it, right? Hey, let's grow together, that's why I'm here for, and I'm sure that's why you are here for, am I right?

In the beginning here, whom I considered my greatest enemy (in debate of course) I realized were my greatest teachers. They were, and continue to be the most challenging. And if it's not challenging, we are not really learning/growing, am I right?

[arian]

Arian, maybe I can help get Freddy's point across to you.

Imagine there are two judges.

One is super strict. He follows the law to the letter. If the justice system says that a criminal deserves to be in jail for one year, 7 days and 15 minutes, then that's EXACTLY how much he sends him to jail for. He does NOT deviate from the justice system. He is practically perfect at giving people EXACTLY the punishment they deserve.

That's not being 'super strict', that's being 'Just' like God is.
Only God is also Merciful, so He devised a way to even out the balance of justice that takes all the sin of Adam down to the last person born into this world, by offering His Son who didn't sin, AS sin.

Adam was perfect, but he sinned and every other human was thrown on one side "sin", which threw the entire balance of justice off.

The Son of God was also Perfect, and remained perfect but took all the sin of the world upon himself which took the weight of the entire worlds sin to the other side of the balance, to perfectness and now it's even again.

Our sin on one side, so now because of Christ we are perfect
Jesus was without sin, took our sin and took it to death with Him, buried it and was resurrected because He himself was sinless, and someone sinless cannot remain dead, but lives. Justice is now balanced out again.

So God shows His Justice AND His Mercy at the same time.

The other judge is a little more laid back. He's a really nice guy. Sometimes he gives people exactly the kind of punishments they deserve, but sometimes he forgives them and lets them go free, especially if they chat him up a bit, tell him that they have a personal relationship with his son, or sing songs about him.

So you call a good honest judge 'Super Strict', while the corrupt good for nothing .. if you even want to call him a judge; "a nice guy". Yea, that really explains it all. I like Freddy's comments much better, and I have just answered him.

Can you agree that the two judges are different?

Boy, .. can I ever!

Can you agree that no judge can simultaneously act like the first judge AND like the second judge?

You mean that; can a corrupt good for nothing unjust judge be a honest and just Judge simultaneously, at the same time?
boy, that's a tough one my atheist buddy!

Can you agree that it's logically impossible for a single person to be both the first and the second judge?

Be corrupt and honest at the same time? That IS a logical impossibility, I agree.

Now. If God is infinitely just, then he's like the first judge. Everybody gets the punishment they deserve.

I agree, that is our Just God. No argument there.

If God is infinitely forgiving, then he's like the second judge. Some people get LESS punishment than they deserve.

That is NOT 'infinitely forgiving', that would be unjust. Don't confuse Gods forgiveness with injustice. Sin is punishable by death, any and all sin. God doesn't spare anyone. His Son was perfect, and even here on earth He committed no sin, but because He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He was punished just like anyone else. As I said, the punishment for sin is death, and boy was He punished, all for us.

God could be one of those two things, but he can't logically be BOTH.

Gods Mercy:
Romans 8:32 (NKJV)
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Gods Justice;
2 peter 2:4 -
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction,
.. and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed.

At the 'same time'.

The bible says that he is both, therefore the God described by the Bible is logically impossible.

Therefore God doesn't exist.

Got it?

I am truly sorry that you have such a perverted understanding of Mercy, equaling it to corruption, and Justice as a cold hearted super strict act! Of course our God is nothing like that. You cannot bribe God. Either you pay for your sins, and if you can't because they are too many, then our Merciful God provided payment for you. Just imagine the cost for your redemption, Gods own beloved Son. And people deny this with mockery, throwing it back in Gods face? How do you think God will respond to something like this?

Then billions bow to some triune-gods, or some idol of a woman they call the Mother of God instead of Jesus? How could people do this, give honor to a plural demon named Legion instead of God and His Son after what they did for us?

If God exercised His Justice alone, we would all be burning in hell for eternity. But instead, while He upheld perfect Justice, He shown his Mercy through offering His own Son.

[atheist buddy]

Sin is punishable by death, any and all sin. God doesn't spare anyone. His Son was perfect, and even here on earth He committed no sin, but because He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He was punished just like anyone else. As I said, the punishment for sin is death, and boy was He punished, all for us.

If God exercised His Justice alone, we would all be burning in hell for eternity. But instead, while He upheld perfect Justice, He shown his Mercy through offering His own Son.

Ah. I see.

So God is like a judge who says this:

"I don't care what you did. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're a murderer, a rapist a thief or a liar, or if you just jaywalked one time. I don't care if you're a good person who just made some mistakes. I don't care if you're the single most compassionate, kind and generous person in the world. I will kill you. KIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL YOU!!!!!!! I will throw you in a dark place infested by demons, I will have you tortured for ever and ever in a lake of fire, and you will suffer a pain beyond your puny mind's ability to comprehend for all of eternity.

BUT

I have a son who is really really nice (It's actually me in disguise). If you agree to beat up my son, then feel guilty for having beaten him up, and agree with me that he is a really really nice guy, then I'll let you come live with us in my mansion. I don't care if you are a murderer, rapist, thief or witch. As long as you beat up my son, feel sorry and say he's awesome, you get to live in my mansion instead of being tortured forever."

That's your interpretation of a loving, just and merciful God? Really?

[Unhand Me Sir]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

There's no doubt that God is portrayed very differently in different parts of the Bible, leading to some pretty tangled apologetics trying to reconcile it all.

To say it's about the Law of Identity is silly, however. Do you really think that 1 John 4 is saying that God is, in fact, an emotional state? Or that 1 Corinthians 13 is really saying that one emotional state feels another? If you read a few verses rather than quote mining it would be obvious what each passage was driving at.

And your cats/dogs comparison is wrong. "Cats are not dogs" would be like "Love is not jealousy," which isn't what is says.

Honestly, there are far too many good arguments around to need to resort to this.

[atheist buddy]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

There's no doubt that God is portrayed very differently in different parts of the Bible, leading to some pretty tangled apologetics trying to reconcile it all.

To say it's about the Law of Identity is silly, however. Do you really think that 1 John 4 is saying that God is, in fact, an emotional state? Or that 1 Corinthians 13 is really saying that one emotional state feels another?

Of course I don't. This argument is based on premises that are completely false. "God is love"? That is a meaningless statement in my opinion. "Love is not jealous":, poetic, but could mean anything, plus inaccurate because people that are in love are often jealous.

So, no, I don't really think that any of this is plausible, meaningful, or worthy of discussion.

I'm bringing this argument up becuase there are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people who DO take the meaningless blanket statements of the Bible seriously.

They think that "God is love" literally means "God is the definition of love, God is the ultimate source of love, god is the ultimate manifestation of love, love is a manifestation of God, GOD IS LOVE".

So, I don't need to convince them that they're wrong on the merits. I can just show them that their assumptions lead inevitably to the conclusion that God is a self-contradictory, logically impossible entity.

In so doing, I demonstrate that those assumptions must be erroneous.

[arian]

Sin is punishable by death, any and all sin. God doesn't spare anyone. His Son was perfect, and even here on earth He committed no sin, but because He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He was punished just like anyone else. As I said, the punishment for sin is death, and boy was He punished, all for us.

If God exercised His Justice alone, we would all be burning in hell for eternity. But instead, while He upheld perfect Justice, He shown his Mercy through offering His own Son.

Ah. I see.

So God is like a judge who says this:

"I don't care what you did. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're a murderer, a rapist a thief or a liar, or if you just jaywalked one time. I don't care if you're a good person who just made some mistakes. I don't care if you're the single most compassionate, kind and generous person in the world. I will kill you. KIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL YOU!!!!!!! I will throw you in a dark place infested by demons, I will have you tortured for ever and ever in a lake of fire, and you will suffer a pain beyond your puny mind's ability to comprehend for all of eternity.

Well, .. you really should read the Bible because you are understanding it backwards. You are looking at Gods justice from the end, 6,000 years after the fall.
How about starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request, not a law, a request from two healthy perfect beings with no history of emotional problems, or child abuse, or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, no bills to pay, no job loss, no divorces, no need to consider abortion, no wars or rumors of wars, never even known what sickness and disease was, didn't even experienced a little fever .. no problems whatsoever, and only ONE request; Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.�

Was she hungry and just couldn't find food?
Nope.
was the fruit so much more appetizing then all the other fruits?
Nope, she even had to convince herself that it was edible, not something gross. "Yea, it looks pretty good, good enough to eat!?"

You see, so don't make God out to be the monster here buddy. I'm sure even an atheist like you expect your kids to fulfill One teeny weeny request, just one, which if broken could kill them? But then all atheists think differently!? so I don't know, .. maybe even that's too demanding!?!? Your children might call you a "moral Monster" right? "Do as thou wilt kids!" is that it? I'm just asking?

BUT

I have a son who is really really nice (It's actually me in disguise). If you agree to beat up my son, then feel guilty for having beaten him up, and agree with me that he is a really really nice guy, then I'll let you come live with us in my mansion. I don't care if you are a murderer, rapist, thief or witch. As long as you beat up my son, feel sorry and say he's awesome, you get to live in my mansion instead of being tortured forever."

That's your interpretation of a loving, just and merciful God? Really?

Not even close. That is what most Christian Religions would like you to think, .. you know, to keep you coming back, .. keep you trembling, not questioning.

No disguise, God cannot be seen and no one has ever seen God, but we can see and touch the Son. Again, you are talking from religious pov, and I do not.

And the guilt should be our sins, not like today, being all proud of all the wickedness that is going on, even boasting about it. Lady Gaga does a wonderful job mocking what she has absolutely no idea of. I guess it's the meat she wears going bad and effecting her brain or something, because that is just not normal. Well, .. unless I was a very religious atheist, I might call it 'art', .. lol.

Also, it was our sins that beat the Son, and every time we sin no matter if you are a murderer, rapist, thief, witch, or the nicest guy in the universe, if you sin, it has contributed to His beating and suffering. Our sins nailed Him to the cross.

And no, .. you do not get to Heaven beating the Son (sinning), what demented church or cult taught you that? Did you attend some school of Atheism or something? I mean I have visited some atheist Debating Forums and I tell you they all talk like you just did. When I started to show them facts, they banned me even though many members were eager to hear more from me. They said over and over again that they never heard anyone non-religious, who was an atheist (as I am, since I don't believe that any of the religiously created gods are God) reveal God in the way I do.
I guess that's why the Moderators kicked me off, I was revealing God, the truth and people were starting to listen. Ironically the forum was called; the Happy Atheist Forum
I guess an atheist is only 'happy' when he is in his own little "There is no God, .. there is no God!" neverland, .. who knows?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 36:

...
There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request
...
Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

Well, let's see 'bout that...

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

I'm here to tell it, the telling folks either they do as I say, or they die, well that's terroristic language we most commonly find coming from terroristic terrorists.

Alas, to the religious, that ain't nothing but a "itsy bitsy teeny weeny request".

I reckon it's a itsy bitsy teeny weeny line twixt, "You either do what I say, or I'ma gon' kill ya", and "If you do what I say, well I'll make kittens the ruler of the internet".

[atheist buddy]

Sin is punishable by death, any and all sin. God doesn't spare anyone. His Son was perfect, and even here on earth He committed no sin, but because He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He was punished just like anyone else. As I said, the punishment for sin is death, and boy was He punished, all for us.

If God exercised His Justice alone, we would all be burning in hell for eternity. But instead, while He upheld perfect Justice, He shown his Mercy through offering His own Son.

Ah. I see.

So God is like a judge who says this:

"I don't care what you did. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're a murderer, a rapist a thief or a liar, or if you just jaywalked one time. I don't care if you're a good person who just made some mistakes. I don't care if you're the single most compassionate, kind and generous person in the world. I will kill you. KIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL YOU!!!!!!! I will throw you in a dark place infested by demons, I will have you tortured for ever and ever in a lake of fire, and you will suffer a pain beyond your puny mind's ability to comprehend for all of eternity.

Well, .. you really should read the Bible because you are understanding it backwards. You are looking at Gods justice from the end, 6,000 years after the fall.
How about starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request, not a law, a request from two healthy perfect beings with no history of emotional problems, or child abuse, or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, no bills to pay, no job loss, no divorces, no need to consider abortion, no wars or rumors of wars, never even known what sickness and disease was, didn't even experienced a little fever .. no problems whatsoever, and only ONE request; Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.�

Was she hungry and just couldn't find food?
Nope.
was the fruit so much more appetizing then all the other fruits?
Nope, she even had to convince herself that it was edible, not something gross. "Yea, it looks pretty good, good enough to eat!?"

Let me get this straight. So Adam and Eve ate an apple, and all of their descendants deserve to be tortured for eternity as a price?

For EATING AN APPLE?

And that's fair to you?


Also, before eating from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, Adam and Eve HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. BEcause they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, yet!

Therefore they had no way of knowing that it was wrong to disobey God.

It's like if I wrote "DON'T READ THIS SENTENCE OR I WILL KILL YOU".

You have no way of knowing that you shouldn't have read the sentence until you read it.

Similarly, Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that it was wrong to eat from the tree, until they ate from the tree.

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to do the right thing.

Punishing somebody for a crime that they couldn't possibly know was a crime is evil.

[Danmark]

And secondly you are implying that this supposedly omniscient perfect God is a complete buffoon ....
....
Christendom itself has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Bible is totally incomprehensible and could only have been inspired by a single supernatural buffoon, or by many individual mortal superstitious buffoons. The latter conclusion is the most reasonable of course.

Moderator Warning

DI, I hope you will permit me a personal note here. You are my friend and one of the best debaters on this site. You and I are in agreement on most if not all issues. But it is uncivil to refer to this God [whom both of us believes does not exist] as a "buffoon." Even if I am wrong, and the "buffoon God" reference is fair comment in a debate, it is uncivil to refer to those who believe in God as "superstitious buffoons."
Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[arian]

From Post 36:

...
There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request
...
Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

Well, let's see 'bout that...

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

I'm here to tell it, the telling folks either they do as I say, or they die, well that's terroristic language we most commonly find coming from terroristic terrorists.

Ah yes, Ahhmid my favorite puppet terrorist.

But you see it is Adam and Eve that committed suicide. Like fish jumping out of the fishbowl, luckily the Lord our God sent his Son to put them back. Sure the shock of a water-breather breathing air is a death sentence to the flesh, but the soul is saved. God prepared a newer, better body that even the most terrorizing terrorist (Satan) can't destroy.

Alas, to the religious, that ain't nothing but a "itsy bitsy teeny weeny request".

Ah come on Joey, it's a simple request: "OK kids, I prepared everything possible for you, to fulfill every enjoyment your little hearts desire. An entire universe is yours, .. one itsy bitsy teeny weeny request; 'Don't (hashtag) kill yourselves!?'"

And what did the woman do? She listened to the Devil while texting (I really don't know what was going on in her mind? But talking to my teen aged daughter when texting, .. I could convince her on just about anything. "Huh, .. yea dad, ok, .. right, .. got you!")
Here is Eve: "Huh, .. killing myself will make me wise like God? OK, not that I'm hungry or anything, I got all the fruit I ever want, .. but umm, yea, .. wisdom sounds good! OMG, .. LOL, .. BFF, .. K?" And then she takes a selfie with the snake as she's eating the fruit! "OMG, .. I just got to send this to Adam!"
What does Adam do? Runs there: "What, where? Hey, I want some, .. come on don't eat all of it!"

Wait, .. hey come on now, .. so who is religious, me? Ouch, .. that hurt.

I reckon it's a itsy bitsy teeny weeny line twixt, "You either do what I say, or I'ma gon' kill ya", and "If you do what I say, well I'll make kittens the ruler of the internet".

No, .. more like: "You separate yourself from Me, you on your own kids! And without Me, things will get real tough. So please don't. I'll come and visit you personally every evening at about this time and we'll talk, any questions you have, My wisdom is at your command. Google Me and see if I can't answer you? Ask me anything, I will explain it to you. There is no one wiser than your Daddy. Of course, if you find someone create a better world and a better universe then this one I gave you and put you in, or be a better and more loving Daddy then Me, you are free to go and check him out."

Sheesh.. the same old serpent-trick works even now; "For three easy payments of $49.95 for my 'SECRET WISDOM' kit, I guarantee you that you will be richer than you ever imagined. You will be able to buy your dream Yacht, your dream ocean-view home, that Ferrari you always dreamed of, you can have all my wisdom I have accumulated over a small part of eternity that made me so rich I own the whole world, .. As Seen On TV's Rich and Famous! So Trust ME! Here is what one third of the Angels who used to be in Heaven have to say, here, read their testimonies for yourself!"