Free Will vs Predestination

[discus70]

I'm confused. The bible clearly states both are intertwined. Example, God new of Jesus's sacrifice while at the same time wants us to choose between good and evil. Predestination just doesn't make any sense to me. If predestination could ever in some kind of magical world be proven, my beliefs would reside with the atheists. If God had it in his "big plan" for African children to starve and be born with aids I would want no part of it. If God was in agreement over the death 6 million people during the Holocaust then I would rather choose not to be associated with this type of God.

If the God that so many claim to know has influence in our lives and everyday decisions you might as well go ahead and send me to hell because a God who picks and chooses over his own people is one very sick being. So people who try to convince me that God is a loving God better think twice about what it is their actually saying. There are only 3 possible outcomes to these conclusions. One, God is hands off and has nothing to do with us (which is where i stand) 2, God has influence in our everyday lives ( these actions would make a very unfair and unloving god in my opinion) 3, There is no God.

Please prove me wrong.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 5 Post 47:

Christian faith is not relative and subjective. Long before there were other Christian denominations, long before there were Baptists, Protestants and even Moslems, Christian faith maintains universal faith among all faithful all throughout the Christendom. Acceptance of faith is not subjective and relative. If you want to be a Christian, the belief in purgatory is as inevitable as heaven and hell. There is no ‘selective’ belief system. One must embrace the faith according to the general teaching of the Church.

I think you are trying to 'enforce' your own interpretation of what it means to be Christian.

As to purgatory, heaven, and hell, I've yet to see any convincing evidence these things exist.

[ST_JB]

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I believe you missed my point.

OH, you had a point?

I see unsupported claims and contentions. Can you address any of the issues or questions raised by your post?

And, would you kindly state your "point" clearly for all to see?

hmmm... I was writing in the context of of discus' post about Christianity having no authority over its teaching. The point is not to make a claim but the logic being point out by discus that i made to post a comment.


Among the topics you openly disagree, which one from the list below you feel comfortable debating with?

I would really love to have you take your strongest stand on your claim and see you in ONE-ON-ONE thread.

I was a little bit amazed how an agnostic/atheist like you was able to deduce/ understand the concept of establishing one true Church. I mean the problem of today’s religion especially in the Christian line is that,

Which is the "one true church"? How is that established with certainty and by what criteria and by what person's authority?

anyone who feels they have understood the word of God (Bible) are free to form a new local church and interprets the bible according to his own understanding and at times personal needs.

Is starting a "new local church" a modern condition? Isn't that how Christianity was formed from Judaism? When did it stop being acceptable?

Are people NOT "allowed" to "interpret the bible according to their own understanding"?

Who, exactly, is authorized to decide what interpretations of the bible are "correct" and who is allowed to start a church?

Long before there were other Christian denominations, long before there were Baptists, Protestants and even Moslems, Christian faith maintains universal faith among all faithful all throughout the Christendom.

Are you claiming that there was unity of belief in Christendom at some point? When exactly would that have been?

If you want to be a Christian, the belief in purgatory is as inevitable as heaven and hell.

Are you speaking for Christianity or for yourself or for a favored sect?

There is no ‘selective’ belief system. One must embrace the faith according to the general teaching of the Church.

Which church? There are tens of thousands of different sects, denominations, splinter groups, cults, etc. Which one speaks for all?

[ST_JB]

From Page 5 Post 47:

Christian faith is not relative and subjective. Long before there were other Christian denominations, long before there were Baptists, Protestants and even Moslems, Christian faith maintains universal faith among all faithful all throughout the Christendom. Acceptance of faith is not subjective and relative. If you want to be a Christian, the belief in purgatory is as inevitable as heaven and hell. There is no ‘selective’ belief system. One must embrace the faith according to the general teaching of the Church.

I think you are trying to 'enforce' your own interpretation of what it means to be Christian.

I am not. I am stating what transpired in Ecclesiastical History.

As to purgatory, heaven, and hell, I've yet to see any convincing evidence these things exist.

Don't be confused with what i gave as an example to what i stated as my position on the subject being debated. I mentioned it to support my previous statement without making any claims since it is not the subject at hand.

[catalyst]

joey wrote:

I think you are trying to 'enforce' your own interpretation of what it means to be Christian

ST_JB is doing just that Joey, however from where he/she stands, he/she is correct only in one sense . He is referring to Constantines (4th century CE) "take", which is the crux of Catholic "faith", heavily influenced as well by Hellenistic philosophy. Out of that, up popped the jesus "saviour" figure and as a result, any splinter denominations (protestant, baptists..etc) came after the original catholic "church" belief system.


He/she is incorrect however to claim that catholicism is the original bringers of the concepts of christianity as there were MULTIPLE "christs" well before the jesus figure, so the concept of christianity came well before his claimed original version, therfore making his interpretation of "first church", benign.

NOTE to ST_JB... why did you add muslims to your list? Also, I cannot see how you claim universality of claimed faith, when it was not adhered to by the world population. Never was and never will be.

[ST_JB]

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I believe you missed my point.

OH, you had a point?

I see unsupported claims and contentions. Can you address any of the issues or questions raised by your post?

And, would you kindly state your "point" clearly for all to see?

You are butting in without understanding the thought being made.

I am not making any claim in my post. I was reiterating the point mentionend by other poster that christians have no authority over its teachings. No universal acceptable faith. Seemed to him that anyone can interpret the bible. And I agree as to what is happening nowadays.

Please try to understand the thought first before butting in. You seemed perfected the art of great POSTULATION.

Anyone knows how to request to open a thread in a HEAD-To-HEAD? Z, kindly state your terms for our suppose H-T-H about the star in bethlehem. Also include limits and delimitations on the subject. I shall wait for your reply.

[Confused]

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I believe you missed my point.

OH, you had a point?

I see unsupported claims and contentions. Can you address any of the issues or questions raised by your post?

And, would you kindly state your "point" clearly for all to see?

You are butting in without understanding the thought being made.

I am not making any claim in my post. I was reiterating the point mentionend by other poster that christians have no authority over its teachings. No universal acceptable faith. Seemed to him that anyone can interpret the bible. And I agree as to what is happening nowadays.

Please try to understand the thought first before butting in. You seemed perfected the art of great POSTULATION.

Anyone knows how to request to open a thread in a HEAD-To-HEAD? Z, kindly state your terms for our suppose H-T-H about the star in bethlehem. Also include limits and delimitations on the subject. I shall wait for your reply.

MODERATOR INTERVENTION:

Okay guys, tempers are flaring in multiple threads and it is time we step up and return to being civil. Comments like those seen in green above are not needed. They violate the rules as is well known. Debate the issue, not the person.

[Zzyzx]

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You are butting in without understanding the thought being made.

Should I ask your permission to enter the thread? Is this a personal conversation?

I am not making any claim in my post. I was reiterating the point mentionend by other poster that christians have no authority over its teachings. No universal acceptable faith. Seemed to him that anyone can interpret the bible. And I agree as to what is happening nowadays.

Please try to understand the thought first before butting in. You seemed perfected the art of great POSTULATION.

Kindly refrain from personal comments (see forum rules and guidelines).

Anyone knows how to request to open a thread in a HEAD-To-HEAD?

I will be happy to request such a thread if we agree upon particulars and agree to proceed.

Z, kindly state your terms for our suppose H-T-H about the star in bethlehem. Also include limits and delimitations on the subject. I shall wait for your reply.

Proposal for Head to Head debate:

Topic: Is the "Star of Bethlehem" story literally true as written in Matthew 2:1-12?

Matthew2:1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. 5"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written: 6" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"

7Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

Structure of debate: Closely moderated by two moderators. One moderator will be invited by each participant from the list of admin and moderators. They will closely monitor for content as well as rule infraction and will make comments as they deem appropriate.

Confused has agreed to be one of the moderators. You choose another of the moderators.

Strict adherence to forum rules http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

Strict adherence to "Guidelines for C&A subforum" http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9741

NO personal comments allowed.

1. Debate is to consist of a total of ten posts each – alternating

2. No post shall exceed 1000 words including quotations

3. A response is to be posted within five calendar days (120 hours) unless delay is agreed

4. Ask no more than two critical questions (bolded and numbered / lettered to identify). Other questions may be asked but are not critical to be answered. One participant shall number questions sequentially from the beginning of the debate, the other shall use sequential letter designations throughout.

5. Answer honestly, openly and fully to the best of ability the two critical questions last asked by opposition or acknowledge inability or unwillingness. Answer any other questions optionally as judgment indicates.

6. Discuss additional issues only after answering the critical questions (or acknowledging inability or unwillingness). Additional points are permitted.

7. Substantiate all claims and statements challenged OR acknowledge inability or unwillingness and withdraw the claim or statement in the next post.

8. Discuss ideas, not personalities. Do not make any personal comments.

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10. Circular reasoning is not permitted (no work shall be cited to prove itself correct)

[ST_JB]

I would like to add the following;

A. Scope and delimitation.
1. Scope - the scope of the debate shall be the text drawn from matthew about the star in bethlehem. Scope needs not to be confined as to the actual text alone. meaning that the use of techniques in historical reading and historical interpretations should not be compromised. In other words, we can use other resources, within or outside the bible provided that the essence of the discussion as to the subject matter be sustained and shall be evaluated by a non-partisan third party (moderators)

2. Delimitation - shall cover the star of bethlehem story only. Participants are requested to state their position at the start of the debate.

B. Suggested Debate Format

1. Participants A & B to state their Positions / arguments at the beginning of the debate
2. Support/ proof in support to the positions / arguments
3. Participant A to post counter-arguments against participant's B's arguments

4. Participant B to post counter-arguments against participant's A's arguments
5. Continue the process 3/4 - alternate presentations

Participants may employ all known school of thoughts / scientific techniques / science or logical analysis in support or against to opposition's position/arguments.