Why are YOU not a catholic?

[Pat2]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

[Shermana]

I have to say I love when Trinitarians use that verse as a proof text, as if the presence of all three being there somehow demonstrates them being 3-in-1 rather than 3 completely separate entities. If anything, this is another verse I also use AGAINST the Trinity, demonstrating that they are 3 separate entities. As for Christ having "two natures", what exactly is a "nature"? Even the Greek Nicean fathers had a hard time wordsmithing something to fit the "2 natures" concept.

[Autodidact]

="Shermana"]

My dear Jewish friend,



Your denial of the FACTS can not, and do not alter what was then true and remains true today.

What FACTS do I deny?

John.10: 37-38 "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Ummm, this is actually a verse I use when I am DISPELLING the Trinity, perhaps you may not see why, so here it is: Jesus is plainly saying he's doing the will of His Father, who is a separate Entity. The "Father in me" and "I am in the Father" further cements the idea that the author intended to convey that they were two separate beings. Now the fact that Jesus called his body a Temple may illustrate some concept that an ultimate vessel of Holiness can allow the Father to reside in Him and accomplish great works, like how the Father dwelt in the Temple.

Matt.24:1-2 "Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."

Ummm, okay, and the Temple was in fact destroyed except for the Outer wall which wasn't really part of the 2nd Temple originally. So....what's your point? This part came true, I don't deny.

And this came to be is 70 A.D. as a direct result of folks like you, who refused to believe that OT prophesy HAD been fullfilled in there time.

Folks like me? Perhaps you missed my earlier post where I clearly said I'm a Messianic Jew, that would mean that I actually believe Jesus WAS the prophecied Moshiach according to the "Old Testament" as you call it, including Zechariah 12:10 and Isaiah 53:10. I think you're assuming that because I reject the Trinity, that must somehow mean that I reject that Yashua Ben Yusuf was the Moshiach. Logic error. And it's "Their" time. I do agree however, that the destruction of the Temple may have had something to do with the widespread rejection of the Moshiach, but that's for another debate.

God Bless my friend,
Pat

Thank you, may G-d put you on the track to objective reasoning and seeing the Scriptures correctly.

The problem your having my friend is mixing the TWO natures of Christ. He is at one and and the SAME TIME. Both Fully God [Divine Nature] and fully man[humannature]

Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

Until you make your case that the Bible is a reliable source for anything, you're wasting your time citing Bible verses.

[Pat2]

="dianaiad"]

Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

Pat, I noticed the :

Does that mean you weren't being serious with the prooftext which follows? (I hope..)?

No, I am completely serious. This is the only passage I'm aware of that shows the 'Trinity" in action; however each of the three persons are frequently mentioned through out the NT.

God Bless,
Pat

[dianaiad]

="dianaiad"]

Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

Pat, I noticed the :

Does that mean you weren't being serious with the prooftext which follows? (I hope..)?

No, I am completely serious. This is the only passage I'm aware of that shows the 'Trinity" in action; however each of the three persons are frequently mentioned through out the NT.

God Bless,
Pat

Well, darn.

You realize that many people use that verse (certainly I do) as an argument AGAINST the Trinity?

[AquinasD]

Even the Greek Nicean fathers had a hard time wordsmithing something to fit the "2 natures" concept.

Diophysitism? It seems to make a lot of sense to me. It means "two-natured."

[Shermana]

Okay, so like I asked, what does "nature" mean exactly?

[Goat]

[Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

There is an presumption of 'trinity' when claiming this passage means 'trinity'.

That assumption is the 'The son of God' is a god himself.

The term 'son of god' in the colloquialism of the Jewish people at the time mean 'A righteous man' who as been chosen by God. Another example of this can be shown in Pslam 2.7, when King David became exalted when he became King. Thus, King David became a 'son of God'.

Thus, if you read that in context of the Jewish understanding of the time period of what the term 'Son of God' meant, it does not show the Trinity at all. The father is not the son.

[JehovahsWitness]

There are a GREAT many Christian sects/ communions/ churches.

BUT Only one is founded by Christ Himself. The Catholic Church.

So my friend, why are you NOT a Catholic?

God Bless,

Pat

This sounds like a request to share ones personal views so....

Although I have great respect for individuals who are Catholic, I am not a Catholic personally because I believe that even if Jesus did found the Catholic Church (which I don't believe for a minute) that he would have subsequently rejected it because it has a such a despicable history or bloodguilt, corruption, oppression, abject materialism, distortion of biblical truths, persecution of honest individuls and political compromise (see Luke 13: 35).

I cannot personally think of any organization that has such a vile history, so many corrupt leaders and such institutionalised greed, dishonesty and disregard for the spiritual welfare of its members.

Those are my personal reasons why I am not a Catholic (Rev 18:4).

Great question,
JW

[Flail]

[Here's a verse I use in explicitly showing the TRINITY

Mt. 3:13-17 “Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus [Son of God] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [Holy Spirit of God] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." [God The Father] =TRINITY

God Bless,
Pat

There is an presumption of 'trinity' when claiming this passage means 'trinity'.

That assumption is the 'The son of God' is a god himself.

The term 'son of god' in the colloquialism of the Jewish people at the time mean 'A righteous man' who as been chosen by God. Another example of this can be shown in Pslam 2.7, when King David became exalted when he became King. Thus, King David became a 'son of God'.

Thus, if you read that in context of the Jewish understanding of the time period of what the term 'Son of God' meant, it does not show the Trinity at all. The father is not the son.

Precisely. And I think the Trinity was simply a concoction of the Church rendered for the purpose of justifying the necessity of a 'Christ belief' precedent to salvation. Otherwise the Commandment "thou shall take no other Gods before me" would necessarily be violated by fundamental Christian Doctrine which required 'coming to BibleGod thru JesusGod only. So Jesus had do morph into a single head of a three headed God rather than remain a single entity. Getting to the Trinity was quite a convoluted and inauthentic process IMO.

[Jester]

Moderator Clarification

Check the rules, Pat. This is not a site for preaching, it's for reasoned debate and argument. You might start by explaining who this Christ fellow is and why we should care.

It is not considered preaching to ask a question (even a leading question) in starting a thread.
In fact, the moderators request that opening posts merely frame the debate by asking a clear question, keeping arguments for later posts.


This doesn't seem to be an apologetics question, however.
As such, it has been moved to the T,D,&D subforum.
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Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.