Depression is a serious problem with in the greater atheist community and far too often, that depression has led to suicide. This is something many of my fellow atheists often don’t like to admit, but it is true. I know a lot of atheists, myself included, would all like to believe that atheists are happier people than religious believers and in many ways we are. But we also have to accept the reality that in some very important ways we are not.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism- ... ec613b812b
Why does atheism have a suicide problem?
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EarthScienceguy
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Post #81
With all due respect, I don't see how I posted any false dichotomies. I just pointed out that your position on this issue is, shall we say, "unorthodox."
How is what I said "ignoring" anything?...ignores the fact that some people chose to die.
Anyway, I'm well aware that some people commit suicide in acts that at least appear to be done both willfully and with complete knowledge of the consequences. I'm just not completely sure that what we see in these acts of self-destruction are what is really going on.
As you know I basically disagree. Among other practical difficulties in allowing suicide, such a "freedom" would probably serve to cheapen society's valuation of human life--a problem that is bad enough already.If they have good reason to do so, they should be allowed that option.
May I choose to live in a society in which we make efforts to preserve and enhance human life?Their choice in no way suggests that any other person should be forced to make the choice they have.
Just in case anybody is getting ideas, here is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
or just dial 988.
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Bust Nak
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Post #82
Why not both this AND a society in which euthanasia is legal? Don't you see the parallel with this and abortion? Where we make effort to stop abortion from being a thing AND have legal abortion?Jagella wrote: May I choose to live in a society in which we make efforts to preserve and enhance human life?
Post #83
I prefer a society without legalized killing. There's just something about doing so that rubs me the wrong way. I'm concerned it may happen to me.
Abortion is not the topic, but just for the record I'm against most abortions except in cases where the mother's life may be endangered. Like euthanasia, choosing abortion often results from fear that the resources necessary for a human life are not available. Looking at it that way, I see the problem as being a lack of resources rather than needing to have a person killed.Don't you see the parallel with this and abortion?
To greatly decrease unwanted pregnancies, we should make sure that families with children get all they need to live well and that would include good healthcare for mothers.Where we make effort to stop abortion from being a thing AND have legal abortion?
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Bust Nak
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Post #84
But it doesn't concern others may want it but can't get it?Jagella wrote: I prefer a society without legalized killing. There's just something about doing so that rubs me the wrong way. I'm concerned it may happen to me.
But you are for legalised abortions, right? I feel I have to double check.Abortion is not the topic, but just for the record I'm against most abortions except in cases where the mother's life may be endangered.
Plus legalised abortions?Like euthanasia, choosing abortion often results from fear that the resources necessary for a human life are not available. Looking at it that way, I see the problem as being a lack of resources rather than needing to have a person killed.
To greatly decrease unwanted pregnancies, we should make sure that families with children get all they need to live well and that would include good healthcare for mothers.
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DrNoGods
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Post #85
[Replying to post 79 by Tcg]
I agree completely. My father was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease when he was 68 years old, and we watched it slowly disable him for the next 16 years as he progressed through the stages. His last 2 years were basically waking up in the morning, getting cleaned in the full nursing home facility he was confined to and taking a batch of pills, sitting in a wheel chair all day long unable to even change the television channel because he had lost control of his body. Then he's placed in a bed at the end of the day to repeat the process the next day. He was horribly miserable and stated this often, and it drained all of his financial resources (and a good chunk of his children's) paying for him to exist in an absolutely awful condition.
I've promised myself that if I ever get into that situation I will "take care of business" while I still have the physical ability to sit next to a tree and pull the trigger on my 38 pistol. I would have no qualms about doing that, and it is infinitely preferable (to me) to "living" as my father did the the final years of his life. If people get into situations like that, and prefer to die rather than suffer through it, they should be allowed the option (using their method of choice, if it is available).
This is very different from a younger person who is struggling with personal issues and gets to the point where they think ending their life is the solution, despite not being in a medical condition that renders life a horribly miserable thing. Individual circumstances certainly play a big role, and every person's situation is different. But preventing any option for ending life voluntarily, under any circumstances, seems wrong. Forcing someone to exist when there is no hope of improving their day-to-day life is tantamount to torture.
If they have good reason to do so, they should be allowed that option.
I agree completely. My father was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease when he was 68 years old, and we watched it slowly disable him for the next 16 years as he progressed through the stages. His last 2 years were basically waking up in the morning, getting cleaned in the full nursing home facility he was confined to and taking a batch of pills, sitting in a wheel chair all day long unable to even change the television channel because he had lost control of his body. Then he's placed in a bed at the end of the day to repeat the process the next day. He was horribly miserable and stated this often, and it drained all of his financial resources (and a good chunk of his children's) paying for him to exist in an absolutely awful condition.
I've promised myself that if I ever get into that situation I will "take care of business" while I still have the physical ability to sit next to a tree and pull the trigger on my 38 pistol. I would have no qualms about doing that, and it is infinitely preferable (to me) to "living" as my father did the the final years of his life. If people get into situations like that, and prefer to die rather than suffer through it, they should be allowed the option (using their method of choice, if it is available).
This is very different from a younger person who is struggling with personal issues and gets to the point where they think ending their life is the solution, despite not being in a medical condition that renders life a horribly miserable thing. Individual circumstances certainly play a big role, and every person's situation is different. But preventing any option for ending life voluntarily, under any circumstances, seems wrong. Forcing someone to exist when there is no hope of improving their day-to-day life is tantamount to torture.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
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Diagoras
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Post #86
[Replying to post 85 by DrNoGods]
It may be worth following the New Zealand General election this year, as they are holding a referendum on euthanasia:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50408033
No doubt impassioned arguments from both sides will be presented. It will be interesting to see the result. Current polling suggests it will pass, but the margin is expected to be slim.
It may be worth following the New Zealand General election this year, as they are holding a referendum on euthanasia:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50408033
No doubt impassioned arguments from both sides will be presented. It will be interesting to see the result. Current polling suggests it will pass, but the margin is expected to be slim.
Post #87
I've noticed that those who support euthanasia tend to be family members or "friends" of the person they say wanted to die. We hear these horror stories about people wanting to die, but we don't very often hear from those who presumably want to die.DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 79 by Tcg]
If they have good reason to do so, they should be allowed that option.
I agree completely. My father...
If anybody here knows of any person who currently wants to die, then if possible please have them post their testimony here in this forum. I want to read what they have to say and ask them some questions.
Anyway, getting back to your father, I noticed that you said nothing about him getting better care and therapy. Was he miserable and did he feel hopeless because he was being abused or neglected?
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DrNoGods
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Post #88
[Replying to post 87 by Jagella]
He was in a $8K/month full nursing facility that was the best in the area, because we (his children) did not want him in a "lessor" place like some of the state supported facilities in the area who we'd visited and saw the conditions. He had his own room, TV, plenty of space, etc. and was never abused or poorly attended to. But Parkinson's had taken its toll and he had deteriorated to the point he could do nothing but sit in a wheel chair all day waiting to be fed, or to have the TV channel changed for him because he had no ability to do that, or type on a keyboard, or even open an envelope if he received a letter. All of this while being intact cognitively until the last few weeks. So he could tell us how miserable his condition was, and did so often. It was the disease that had abused him, not the facility he was in or the people taking care of him who he very much enjoyed.
But he never said he wanted to die or kill himself. He was religious enough to believe in an afterlife, and believed that suicide may deny heaven, so he suffered through the remaining 14 months of his life in a miserable condition just waiting for the end. That came when he contracted pneumonia and was too weak to recover from it.
In my post I was referring to myself if I were to get into that condition. I would want the option to put an end to my life, and since I have no religious beliefs or expectations of an afterlife, I would have no qualms about being put out of such misery whether by my own hand, or someone elses.
So I was not referring to an option where I would have the decision to end my father's life because I thought it would be a better situation, but rather that I would like the option to make that decision for myself should I get into a similar condition ... because I saw first hand what an awful existence that was. If I were religious and thought that suicide had implications beyond simply turning my living body into a corpse, then I think I would still like the option to have assistance in getting the job done, just like this fellow:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/au ... d=55067324
Anyway, getting back to your father, I noticed that you said nothing about him getting better care and therapy. Was he miserable and did he feel hopeless because he was being abused or neglected?
He was in a $8K/month full nursing facility that was the best in the area, because we (his children) did not want him in a "lessor" place like some of the state supported facilities in the area who we'd visited and saw the conditions. He had his own room, TV, plenty of space, etc. and was never abused or poorly attended to. But Parkinson's had taken its toll and he had deteriorated to the point he could do nothing but sit in a wheel chair all day waiting to be fed, or to have the TV channel changed for him because he had no ability to do that, or type on a keyboard, or even open an envelope if he received a letter. All of this while being intact cognitively until the last few weeks. So he could tell us how miserable his condition was, and did so often. It was the disease that had abused him, not the facility he was in or the people taking care of him who he very much enjoyed.
But he never said he wanted to die or kill himself. He was religious enough to believe in an afterlife, and believed that suicide may deny heaven, so he suffered through the remaining 14 months of his life in a miserable condition just waiting for the end. That came when he contracted pneumonia and was too weak to recover from it.
In my post I was referring to myself if I were to get into that condition. I would want the option to put an end to my life, and since I have no religious beliefs or expectations of an afterlife, I would have no qualms about being put out of such misery whether by my own hand, or someone elses.
So I was not referring to an option where I would have the decision to end my father's life because I thought it would be a better situation, but rather that I would like the option to make that decision for myself should I get into a similar condition ... because I saw first hand what an awful existence that was. If I were religious and thought that suicide had implications beyond simply turning my living body into a corpse, then I think I would still like the option to have assistance in getting the job done, just like this fellow:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/au ... d=55067324
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
Post #89
How do you know his care was that good? Did he tell you, or is it your own estimation?DrNoGods wrote:He was in a $8K/month full nursing facility that was the best in the area, because we (his children) did not want him in a "lessor" place like some of the state supported facilities in the area who we'd visited and saw the conditions. He had his own room, TV, plenty of space, etc. and was never abused or poorly attended to. But Parkinson's had taken its toll and he had deteriorated to the point he could do nothing but sit in a wheel chair all day waiting to be fed, or to have the TV channel changed for him because he had no ability to do that, or type on a keyboard, or even open an envelope if he received a letter. All of this while being intact cognitively until the last few weeks. So he could tell us how miserable his condition was, and did so often. It was the disease that had abused him, not the facility he was in or the people taking care of him who he very much enjoyed.
It does seem that in at least some cases people are less likely to want to die or commit suicide if they have religious beliefs.But he never said he wanted to die or kill himself. He was religious enough to believe in an afterlife, and believed that suicide may deny heaven, so he suffered through the remaining 14 months of his life in a miserable condition just waiting for the end. That came when he contracted pneumonia and was too weak to recover from it.
How do you know what you would do in a situation you've never been in?In my post I was referring to myself if I were to get into that condition. I would want the option to put an end to my life, and since I have no religious beliefs or expectations of an afterlife, I would have no qualms about being put out of such misery whether by my own hand, or someone elses.
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Purple Knight
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Post #90
Have a one-year waiting period for people with no physical reason to end their life.DrNoGods wrote:This is very different from a younger person who is struggling with personal issues and gets to the point where they think ending their life is the solution, despite not being in a medical condition that renders life a horribly miserable thing.
They must affirm, every week of that year, that they absolutely believe their life is horrible and they want out of it.
After a year they get their lethal injection.
Most people won't pass this. Most people are too wishy-washy to pass this.
The only people who will pass are the ones for whom existence is really and truly torture they would do anything to get out of.
