Evidence, schmevidence and the extraordinary

[Awediot]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

[Haven]

It seems that you are saying that God's existence / religion / spirituality is subjective. If it is subjective, then why should I try Christianity rather than Islam, or Judaism, or Paganism, or New Age, or Buddhism, or Hinduism? Without any evidence to believe Christianity is actually true, I see no reason why I should prefer your faith to any other.

Why aren't you a Muslim? Why aren't you a Hindu? If it wasn't evidence, then what got you to Christianity?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

...
Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

My willingness to "try or not" is predicated on a claimant being able to support their claims.

The lamentations of those who are unable to do so are of little concern to me.

[Awediot]

It seems that you are saying that God's existence / religion / spirituality is subjective. If it is subjective, then why should I try Christianity rather than Islam, or Judaism, or Paganism, or New Age, or Buddhism, or Hinduism? Without any evidence to believe Christianity is actually true, I see no reason why I should prefer your faith to any other.

Why aren't you a Muslim? Why aren't you a Hindu? If it wasn't evidence, then what got you to Christianity?

Yes. People's reaction to God is an individual thing. We are not robots or the Borg.

Find out for yourself. This is not a thread to sift what you do not believe in.

The topic is Finding your hand in a dream. Please don't derail that. Start a "why are you a _________" thread and I'll be more than happy to answer there.

[Awediot]

From the OP:

...
Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

My willingness to "try or not" is predicated on a claimant being able to support their claims.

The lamentations of those who are unable to do so are of little concern to me.

This is my last ditch effort to provide you that support... Now it takes effort on your part.

This is why I have begun to doubt the sincerity of atheists in their request Joey... You want evidence, you got it...but it's as extraordinary as can be, and YOU have to make the effort. If not, fine. I can't give it to you all nice and packaged up on a silver platter as you demand. No one can... And I think some of you count on it to maintain your preferred atheism.

[TheBlackPhilosophy]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

Get used to it, people are allowed what they wish to deem "believable". Even I don't like hard-core atheists and skeptics (I feel that they are the same as the opposite side of hard-core believers).

Don't get discouraged, keep searching for your own answers first before you convince others. Otherwise, you won't get anywhere.

Besides it's all up to the individual in the end!

(that's the beauty of freedom of religious belief (or lack thereof))

[Awediot]

people are allowed what they wish to deem "believable".

Of course.

Are you saying people believe what they wish?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

A god that for whatever reason won't provide anything but the most meager evidence for his existence is an interesting one. On the one hand, it's convenient. You get to keep believing in it, and reaping the benefits of doing so, while being able to convince yourself of your own rationality - even though you have no objective reasons for doing so. On the other hand, it's a burden. You have a god that gives you enough evidence for someone special like you to believe, but refuses to give enough evidence to show everyone else that you speak the truth. It seems almost a cruelty, in a way.

Again I'm going to have to ask you to imagine how this scenario looks to everyone else, everyone else who isn't lucky enough to share in your special personal revelation. Maybe you know all these intricate rules about how god gives evidence and why, and maybe they all make sense to you. But for the rest of us, all we have are our best tools of inquiry - logic, rationality, the scientific method. We need evidence. If all you have are claims, it is only rational for someone like me to ask you to support your claims. If you are unable to support your claims in any significant way, what possible reason would I have to believe you? If you approach your claims from the perspective of one who has no notions of gods or special magical evidence or anything like that, how can you expect to be taken especially seriously?

It's good that you've found the "Random Ramblings" section of the forum. This website is a place for debate via evidence and argument, where claims must be supported. Given the nature of your personal idea of god, it's probably not really the place for you. If you want to discuss your beliefs without the burden of showing that they have some basis in reality, you will mainly be confined to this and a few other forums (Holy Huddle, perhaps also Theology). If you wish to challenge the entire paradigm which debate in general operates under, you will need something more substantial. You can't just say "evidence for god doesn't really matter because god told me this (but don't ask me to prove it!)."

[Awediot]

To me it appears you won't even try...

Did you even mention the challenge? The topic of the thread..or was it just an elaborate excuse?



So far, everyone has only tried to change the subject.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

To me it appears you won't even try...

Did you even mention the challenge? The topic of the thread..or was it just an elaborate excuse?



So far, everyone has only tried to change the subject.

I rarely dream, and when I do I have no control over what I go around seeking. Are you trying to make some point about lucid dreaming? Or is it a metaphor?