Free Will vs Intelligence

[teegstar]

Ok - So I have a question that I thought might get some interesting debate.

Please excuse any typos and none technical words. Everyone's going to get to know me as 'that guy who likes to use mundane words and confuses their, there, and they're'.

Question:

Can Creationists please explain, if I were to place my hand in a pot of boiling water - why would my subconscious have me remove it from the boiling water within a second or two.

I.E. Whats stopping me from keeping it in there for 5 seconds and my reflex kicking in

As an Evolutian, I believe that this is a sign of intelligence.
I.E. Humans have aquired knowledge (bad to leave hand in the boiling water) and applied that knwoledge (hand removed from water - an instinct).

If God has given us free will, - why cant we just stick good ole` lefty in the pot for a few minutes and watch it cook away.

The pain stops that from occuring, but why do you automatically remove your hand from that source of pain, without even getting to experience the pain - as another example, you turn the hotwater on to rinse something, then turn it off. You dry the dish with a dish towel, stick it in the cupboard and when you turn around you turn the water on again. You forget that it was just on hot, stick your hand in the running water, and in a split second you instinctivly flick it away from the running water, your heart rate increases a little, and you think 'Gee - that was close' even though you actually DID put your hand under that boiling water. Something 'made' you remove it, and the pain hadnt trigged just yet

DISLAIMED: Apologies for any typos

[Deqsan]

First of all, if you don't want typo errors, use "SpellCheck" lol !

Every creature in God's creation has inbuilt self-preservation, any animal upon the sensation of pain would seek to rid itself of the cause of it or remove itself from it! The animal that for example touches an electric fence, doesn't return for further shocks, it learns. Does this supprt 'evolution', no, the Creator instilled natural instincts in His creatures, hence, birds build nests, other creature hybernate, He is the designer, animals respond to danger, hunger, thirst, reproduction, what animals can't do is break from these. Man, created in the image of God has the ability to break from these basic instincts, millions of men broke from selfpreservation and died in two world wars and many other conflicts besides, the hot water theme, a Taiwanese gent demonstrated 'mind over matter ' by plucking a metal chain from boiling oil! Man also is aware of 'good' and 'evil', far from supporting evolution, intelligence is an indication of an intelligence behind creation!

As your question is put in such away, that it is difficult to know exactly what you wish to know, please forgive my answer if it hasn't addressed it.
Maybe you could rephrase it to clarify?

[teegstar]

My question is simple:

What IS a reflex in terms of evolution and creationism.

Every creature in God's creation has inbuilt self-preservation

Which scrolls mention gods inbuilt self-preservation into man (I'm sure there is, I'd just to like to know how its worded in the English world) and does it mention anything about taking your free will away in order to have this self-preservation.

Why does our mind perform a reflex. A reflex is performed without having to be taught that reflex from someone else - and not only humans perform reflex. You have no choice in performing a reflex, your body does it automatically.

Man, created in the image of God has the ability to break from these basic instincts, millions of men broke from selfpreservation and died in two world wars and many other conflicts besides

Wars arent a reflex. Its not your 'instinct' that goes to war, thats a social issue.

a Taiwanese gent demonstrated 'mind over matter ' by plucking a metal chain from boiling oil!

That isnt a reflex. He's taught himself to go against instincts. He had to make mind over matter, the same Tiawanese man would still have difficulty putting his hand in a direct fire unless he had also prepared his mine for it. Is he effectively going against his God, who has put these instincts in?

Man also is aware of 'good' and 'evil', far from supporting evolution, intelligence is an indication of an intelligence behind creation!

I'd like to know where you get your evidence for this from. Good and Evil are religious concepts. They aren't human concepts, and not all races on Earth will consider the same things Good and Evil. This can be seen with something like say, suicide Bombers. You may say its Evil, but there are plenty of others out there that will say its Good. Why are you more right than they are? Why do you get to choose whats Good and whats Evil?

Intelligence increase your ability to survive. The more intelligent you are, the better you can find food, defend yourself, and create shelter. It supports Evolution.

[Deqsan]

I am not a biologist so maybe I am missing the point of your question, forgive me for that, in my layman understanding, reflexes are part of all living creatures, from a creationist point of view, it's seen as God's design, so that creatures can function, breathing is a reflex, I don't consciously breath in and out.

There is no scriptural text that says man and beast have selfpreservation, it's an observation that creatures do not deliberately put themselves in life threatening situations. (I generalise, I am sure you will point out some examples to disprove that).

As far as free will of man is concerned the Bible shows how mans 'free will' was lost in the Garden of Eden.(That's another topic).

Going into a war situation, where there is a high probability of death is going against your instinct, I used that as an illustration, as creatures have the fight or flee instinct, the body prepares itself when stimulated by threatening circumstances, God created us with these instincts, I fail to see how this supports evolution or creation ( I really feel I am missing your point in this discussion, sorry).

The concept of good and evil, it's not only restricted to religious belief and creeds, societies would not function if there was no concept of right and wrong, good and evil. I don't decide what's good and evil or what is right and wrong, (a suicide bomber in London, an allied commando in the second world war blows up an axis ammunition dump by committing suicide, good and evil is relative in these two circumstances, but a 30 year old man abducts a young child abuses and murders, is there a society that would sanction such an act! It would be seen as wrong or stronger evil).

Intelligence increases your chances of survival, quantify intelligence, are we talking nuclear physicists v road sweeper, city broker v amazon tribesman, modern man despite his intelligence is less likely to survive than an amazon tribesman when it comes to finding food and defence if both were set in a jungle! Again I apologise if I have misunderstood the point your making.

[teegstar]

I just had a nice long winded response (half posted it) - but I've decided there is no point in debating the topic. The general response seems to be 'God do it cause he wanted to' but nobody is actually explains why God has not given you the free will to inflict this kind of self harm, but will allow you to shoot yourself in the head - Scientifically you can explain the difference.

Once again - I can say my cat is God, and he's told me that he made the sky blue because its his favourite colour. Creationists couldnt argue otherwise because I dont have to 'give' any proof of it, inform me if there is some way you can prove otherwise. Science could though.

[Cathar1950]

Freewill and determinism have alway fascinated me. Once as I was thinking about determinism I had a panic attack. I was taking physics I belive. It seems like everything is determined when I think about my life others my culture. Sure there is some wiggle room for variation otherwise
our ancestors would not have us around debating or thinking about it.
If you read the Bible and look for a guide to the dilemma you will get, like most of the Bible, two or 3 answers and it could be one the other or both.
Intelligence is an adaptation, genes, and culture. We are not even sure what Intelligence is. Is it a score on an iq test? Which is related to grades,
which is suppose to predict college success, which is suppose to be related to test scores that are related to grade which are usually received because they behave, are not creative, and privileged. Sure there are exceptions
they are put in the circus of life. I do belive what one person can learn anyone can given time and half a brain. Maybe not master but learn.
Deqsan wrote:

As far as free will of man is concerned the Bible shows how mans 'free will' was lost in the Garden of Eden.(That's another topic).

I think man according to the story became like God knowing(experience) good(makes sense, fits in, works) and evil(doesn't make sense, doesn't fit, doesn't work). It seems that is when humans became aware of choices and consequences(freewill) they didn't lose it, if your going to stick with the story. They gained something they just lost the tree of life. Small price to pay.
Deqsan wrote:

Man, created in the image of God has the ability to break from these basic instincts,

I thought you said we lost freewill.
I seems to me your supporting evolution with Instincts, self preservation, and Intelligence.

a Taiwanese gent demonstrated 'mind over matter ' by plucking a metal chain from boiling oil! Man also is aware of 'good' and 'evil', far from supporting evolution, intelligence is an indication of an intelligence behind creation!

(bold italics added)
That is no way for a person with out freewill to act.
Maybe there is no freewill or determinism but waves(or bell curves) of probability. Maybe it is just an illusion that or minds thru evolution have developed as we go thru our lives believing we are making choices after the fact because that is how we remember it. Maybe freewill is just in the subatomic particles which determines everything else.

[Deqsan]

The loss of 'Free will', I am not talking about our freedom of choice to 'stay in bed all day' or ' get up', the will to do 'good' in the sight of God or 'evil' in the sight of God, our wills are subject to our fallen nature, it is imprisoned and will only do evil or that which is contrary to God, 'even our good works are as filthy rags' Iasiah.

[Cathar1950]

Do you really have the free will to stay in bed all day?
I can't do it if I try. Are they choices or do you just remember what you did and belive you made a choice after the fact?
When something is happening as i see and experience it it is history. My brain messes with it before it sends it to the visual cortex. I am just remembering I am not acting or observing. Smoke and mirrors.

[Deqsan]

Cathar1950, we may make plans, based on choices and the 'freedom of our will' to do it, we have 'freedom' but it is never totally free, it is subjected to cicumstances, geography, culture, but that is to do with the physical world, our day to day living, we make choices using our intelligence.

When it comes to making an ultimate choice between good and evil, right and wrong to the standard revealed by our creator (that is to say, not our own ethics or standards but God's) we, as fallen creatures, are incapable of 'choosing' the right way, we reject God's way.

Our intellect finds reasons to disobey, ignore, ridicule, deny, even create our own way in place of His way (false religion, philosophies, denial of God's existence) which seem more palatable to us, with regards to religion, give a man a set of rites, rules, observances, ceremonies, which he can perform, a pilgrimage and assure him that this will please God, he would be more likely to try them, as he would be able to boast in his achievements, playing to human pride.

What we see in the Christian faith is a unique declaration that salvation is outside of human endeavour, no matter how much a man 'wills' himself to please God, he cannot. No amount of purification ceremonies, religious observances, good works etc can please God.

As man is therefore incapable by his 'free will' to choose to follow God's way, God in His mercy and love, makes us new creatures in Christ, giving us a new nature, (by the working of the person of the Holy Spirit), one that can choose to live as God intended, knowing that the chief aim of man is to glorify God, that's a liberated will!

[Icarus]

Teegstar,
How would science prove your cat is God and the cat talks to you?

Once again - I can say my cat is God, and he's told me that he made the sky blue because its his favourite colour. Creationists couldnt argue otherwise because I dont have to 'give' any proof of it, inform me if there is some way you can prove otherwise. Science could though.