After the resurrection, the virgin birth is probably the biggest miracle associated with Jesus. It is even included in the Nicene creed. The virgin birth is reported twice in the New Testament. Are these reports reliable? Is there good corroborative evidence outside of these reports? Or is it more likely to be a legend that developed later?
This brings us to the main question of this debate:
Based on all the evidence available, should we consider the virgin birth of Jesus to be a historical event?
The virgin birth
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #2Like any other claim, in order to decide if the virgin birth happened we have to examine the reasons for believing it. The primary reason is that the claim of the virgin birth is found in two books of the New Testament; the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke. Let’s first review the basics of these two gospels.
The authors of both gospels are unknown. The gospel of Matthew is dated to around 85-90. The gospel of Luke is dated to around 85-95, with some scholars even dating it in the second century. Thus these books are written about 80 years or more after the birth of Jesus. This is generally accepted among scholars, see for example here and here. The authors were not eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus.
Now let’s look at reliability. Are the authors of these gospels reliable? Consider the verses of Luke 2:1-5. These verses talk about a census being taken in the entire Roman empire which requires people to register in the birth village of their ancestor. For Joseph, this ancestor was David, who lived about a thousand years earlier. Outside of royalty, no one would know their ancestor of a thousand years earlier. And even if everyone in the Roman empire knew their ancestor so far back, the logistical problems of such a census would dismantle the Roman empire. Farmers would need to walk thousands of kilometres and leave behind their farms. This is not how Roman bureaucracy worked. Since the author of the gospel of Luke still included this in his gospel, that shows that either the author or his sources weren’t entirely accurate.
Now let’s consider the verses of Matthew 2:1-12. These verses talk about the wise men from the East visiting Jesus. First they go to Jerusalem to ask for the king of the Jews. Then they followed the star to Bethlehem, where they found the exact house Jesus was born. Thus they followed a star to find their destination with the accuracy of a modern GPS device. Such a thing is simply impossible, as you can’t accurately fid a location based on looking at where a star is located. This shows that the gospel of Matthew isn’t completely accurate either. And since these gospels contain inaccuracies, they are not reliable. Some things they wrote were true, some were false. Thus if we find a claim in these gospels, we have to analyse them and compare them with other sources to see if they are true.
So how do they compare to each other? Do they at least give the same story? No, far from it. In Matthew 2:1, we read that Jesus was born in the days of Herod the king. Yet, in Luke 2:2 we read that Quirinius was governor of Syria when Jesus was born. Herod died in the year 4 BCE, while Quirinius only became governor of Syria in the year 6 CE. Thus there is at least a 9 year gap between the time when Jesus is born in the gospel of Matthew and when he is born in the gospel of Luke. In other words, the two gospels contradict each other.
While they contradict each other at times, they also have a lot of overlap in their infancy narratives. In both gospels, Jesus is born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem, Joseph is of the lineage of David and the infancy narrative ends in Nazareth. Yet the gospel of Matthew starts in Bethlehem, has the wise men from the East, the flight to Egypt and the massacre of the innocents in Bethlehem, whereas the gospel of Luke starts in Nazareth and has the census of Quirinius and the presentation of Jesus at the temple. Both gospels have a few of the same dots, but they connect them very differently. Now, where do these dots come from? One of them is easy. If you want to write a story about Jesus of Nazareth, then you better make him grow up in Nazareth. The others come from the Old Testament. For example, Micah 5:2 states that the messiah will come from Bethlehem, so if you believe Jesus is the messiah then you write that he was born in Bethlehem. In Matthew 1:23, the author refers to Isaiah 7:14, so that’s the verse we will explore next.
The Hebrew word that is commonly translated in English bibles as virgin is ‘almah’. However, this word means young woman rather than a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is ‘bethulah’. This word is used by the same author in verses 23:4, 23:12 and 37:22. In the Septuagint, the word ‘almah’ got translated as ‘parthenos’, which came to mean virgin. The authors of the New Testament read the Septuagint rather than the original Hebrew, so they ended up using this mistranslation.
Now let’s look at the context for this verse. Chapter 7 of Isaiah talks about the kings of Syria and Israel waging war against Jerusalem. King Ahaz of Judah had to ask God for a sign in order to survive the attack. First he refused, but God gave him a sign anyway. A young woman will conceive and bear a son and call him Immanuel. Before the boy will know good from evil, the two kingdoms will be defeated. There is no messianic prophecy in this chapter. It is a sign to king Ahaz, which means that it only makes sense when it happens during his life. In other words, applying it to Jesus is a misinterpretation.
Conclusion
The reason for believing in the virgin birth is that we have two unreliable, contradicting, non-eyewitness sources, written about 80 years after the event in order to fulfil a misinterpretation of a mistranslation of an Old Testament text. No one who isn’t already committed to this belief would consider this to be sufficient reason for believing in the virgin birth.
The authors of both gospels are unknown. The gospel of Matthew is dated to around 85-90. The gospel of Luke is dated to around 85-95, with some scholars even dating it in the second century. Thus these books are written about 80 years or more after the birth of Jesus. This is generally accepted among scholars, see for example here and here. The authors were not eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus.
Now let’s look at reliability. Are the authors of these gospels reliable? Consider the verses of Luke 2:1-5. These verses talk about a census being taken in the entire Roman empire which requires people to register in the birth village of their ancestor. For Joseph, this ancestor was David, who lived about a thousand years earlier. Outside of royalty, no one would know their ancestor of a thousand years earlier. And even if everyone in the Roman empire knew their ancestor so far back, the logistical problems of such a census would dismantle the Roman empire. Farmers would need to walk thousands of kilometres and leave behind their farms. This is not how Roman bureaucracy worked. Since the author of the gospel of Luke still included this in his gospel, that shows that either the author or his sources weren’t entirely accurate.
Now let’s consider the verses of Matthew 2:1-12. These verses talk about the wise men from the East visiting Jesus. First they go to Jerusalem to ask for the king of the Jews. Then they followed the star to Bethlehem, where they found the exact house Jesus was born. Thus they followed a star to find their destination with the accuracy of a modern GPS device. Such a thing is simply impossible, as you can’t accurately fid a location based on looking at where a star is located. This shows that the gospel of Matthew isn’t completely accurate either. And since these gospels contain inaccuracies, they are not reliable. Some things they wrote were true, some were false. Thus if we find a claim in these gospels, we have to analyse them and compare them with other sources to see if they are true.
So how do they compare to each other? Do they at least give the same story? No, far from it. In Matthew 2:1, we read that Jesus was born in the days of Herod the king. Yet, in Luke 2:2 we read that Quirinius was governor of Syria when Jesus was born. Herod died in the year 4 BCE, while Quirinius only became governor of Syria in the year 6 CE. Thus there is at least a 9 year gap between the time when Jesus is born in the gospel of Matthew and when he is born in the gospel of Luke. In other words, the two gospels contradict each other.
While they contradict each other at times, they also have a lot of overlap in their infancy narratives. In both gospels, Jesus is born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem, Joseph is of the lineage of David and the infancy narrative ends in Nazareth. Yet the gospel of Matthew starts in Bethlehem, has the wise men from the East, the flight to Egypt and the massacre of the innocents in Bethlehem, whereas the gospel of Luke starts in Nazareth and has the census of Quirinius and the presentation of Jesus at the temple. Both gospels have a few of the same dots, but they connect them very differently. Now, where do these dots come from? One of them is easy. If you want to write a story about Jesus of Nazareth, then you better make him grow up in Nazareth. The others come from the Old Testament. For example, Micah 5:2 states that the messiah will come from Bethlehem, so if you believe Jesus is the messiah then you write that he was born in Bethlehem. In Matthew 1:23, the author refers to Isaiah 7:14, so that’s the verse we will explore next.
The Hebrew word that is commonly translated in English bibles as virgin is ‘almah’. However, this word means young woman rather than a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is ‘bethulah’. This word is used by the same author in verses 23:4, 23:12 and 37:22. In the Septuagint, the word ‘almah’ got translated as ‘parthenos’, which came to mean virgin. The authors of the New Testament read the Septuagint rather than the original Hebrew, so they ended up using this mistranslation.
Now let’s look at the context for this verse. Chapter 7 of Isaiah talks about the kings of Syria and Israel waging war against Jerusalem. King Ahaz of Judah had to ask God for a sign in order to survive the attack. First he refused, but God gave him a sign anyway. A young woman will conceive and bear a son and call him Immanuel. Before the boy will know good from evil, the two kingdoms will be defeated. There is no messianic prophecy in this chapter. It is a sign to king Ahaz, which means that it only makes sense when it happens during his life. In other words, applying it to Jesus is a misinterpretation.
Conclusion
The reason for believing in the virgin birth is that we have two unreliable, contradicting, non-eyewitness sources, written about 80 years after the event in order to fulfil a misinterpretation of a mistranslation of an Old Testament text. No one who isn’t already committed to this belief would consider this to be sufficient reason for believing in the virgin birth.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #3IS IT POSSIBLE TO VERIFY IF MARY WAS REALLY A VIRGIN WHEN SHE GAVE BIRTH TO JESUS?
Even today it would be very difficult (if not impossible) for a woman to prove she is a virgin; when it comes to such matters , short of very intimate examination of her person, one would have to simply take her word on the matter.
As for Mary, there are certainly no reports of any men claiming to have been sexually intimate with her prior to the birth of Jesus or of family, friends or aquaintences claiming she was sexually promiscuous. In short, there is no valid reason unless already committed to disbelief (ie a preconceived bias against supernatural intervention) to to reject the reported account of the circumstances of Jesus birth.
RELATED POSTS
Even today it would be very difficult (if not impossible) for a woman to prove she is a virgin; when it comes to such matters , short of very intimate examination of her person, one would have to simply take her word on the matter.
As for Mary, there are certainly no reports of any men claiming to have been sexually intimate with her prior to the birth of Jesus or of family, friends or aquaintences claiming she was sexually promiscuous. In short, there is no valid reason unless already committed to disbelief (ie a preconceived bias against supernatural intervention) to to reject the reported account of the circumstances of Jesus birth.
RELATED POSTS
Is it possible to verify if Mary really was a virgin at the time'of Jesus conception? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1130824#p1130824
How did Luke source his information about Mary's virginity?
viewtopic.php?p=832767#p832767
When does Luke indicate Jesus was born?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 63#p831863
Does the writer of Matthew "mistranslate" or "misapply" the Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14? [almah]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 18#p763618
Did Mary lie about her pregnancy to avoid being stoned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p898401
Did Jesus human life begin as a fertilized egg in a woman's womb?
viewtopic.php?p=1022425#p1022425
How could Mary give birth to a Male child if she was a virgin? Wouldn't she only be capable of giving birth to a female?
viewtopic.php?p=832716#p832716
Are there other stories of virgin births ? (historia)
viewtopic.php?p=389536#p389536
Why believe the biblical testimony of the virgin birth?
viewtopic.php?p=898370#p898370
Was Jesus REALLY a human being?
viewtopic.php?p=1046277#p1046277
To learn more please go to other posts related to...
CHRISTMAS , JESUS CONCEPTION & BIRTH and ... THE NATIVITY
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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POI
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #4How in the heck were you able to get an actual picture of the "virgin Mary"?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:15 pm IS IT POSSIBLE TO VERIFY IF MARY WAS REALLY A VIRGIN WHEN SHE GAVE BIRTH TO JESUS?
Even today it would be very difficult (if not impossible) for a woman to prove she is a virgin; when it comes to such matters , short of very intimate examination of her person, one would have to simply take her word on the matter.
As for Mary, there are certainly no reports of any men claiming to have been sexually intimate with her prior to the birth of Jesus or of family, friends or aquaintences claiming she was sexually promiscuous. In short, there is no valid reason unless already committed to disbelief (ie a preconceived bias against supernatural intervention) to to reject the reported account of the circumstances of Jesus birth.
RELATED POSTS
Is it possible to verify if Mary really was a virgin at the time'of Jesus conception? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1130824#p1130824
How did Luke source his information about Mary's virginity?
viewtopic.php?p=832767#p832767
When does Luke indicate Jesus was born?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 63#p831863
Does the writer of Matthew "mistranslate" or "misapply" the Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14? [almah]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 18#p763618
Did Mary lie about her pregnancy to avoid being stoned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p898401
Did Jesus human life begin as a fertilized egg in a woman's womb?
viewtopic.php?p=1022425#p1022425
How could Mary give birth to a Male child if she was a virgin? Wouldn't she only be capable of giving birth to a female?
viewtopic.php?p=832716#p832716
Are there other stories of virgin births ? (historia)
viewtopic.php?p=389536#p389536
Why believe the biblical testimony of the virgin birth?
viewtopic.php?p=898370#p898370
Was Jesus REALLY a human being?
viewtopic.php?p=1046277#p1046277To learn more please go to other posts related to...
CHRISTMAS , JESUS CONCEPTION & BIRTH and ... THE NATIVITY
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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brunumb
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #5I'm more astonished that this was presented as a case for her virginity:
"As for Mary, there are certainly no reports of any men claiming to have been sexually intimate with her prior to the birth of Jesus or of family, friends or aquaintences claiming she was sexually promiscuous."
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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POI
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #6Many of JW's responses are astonishing. However, I've stopped engaging them too much, as JW hardly addresses my responses anymore. Even though, most of the time, JW engages me first.brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:37 pmI'm more astonished that this was presented as a case for her virginity:
"As for Mary, there are certainly no reports of any men claiming to have been sexually intimate with her prior to the birth of Jesus or of family, friends or aquaintences claiming she was sexually promiscuous."
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #7I believe it is true, because of the words Jesus said. If he would just be a ordinary man, I don't think he would have spoken as he did. But, obviously this will remain a matter of belief in any case.
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brunumb
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #8None of which is evidence of a virgin birth.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #9.,
sincere pleasantries unto all beloved brothers and sisters.
what is really amazing is Mary was of the Seed or Linage of King David
this is exactly why she was chosen to bear the Lord, Jesus, The Anointing.
In fact, the angel Gabriel was sent from God directly and specifically speaking to Mary saying that
Luk 1: 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob
If the Angel Of The Lord - Gabriel, directly told Joseph he could take Mary as his wife and told him to not have any fear or worries about taking Mary as his wife -
having a marital husband and wife sexual relationship - this - was the entire point of this message from the Angel
Joseph was planning on putting away his fiancé and putting off the marriage - Joseph was worried and hurt because in his mind - mary had already had sex with someone and in the mind of Joseph, Mary had cheated and had sex and had become pregnant.
Mary had cheated on him and committed adultery and fornicated a nd now was suddenly pregnant. ?
Joseph was hurt, worried and even in fear and anxiety - his new wife was adulterous and had committed adultery against him
But the Angel of God knew exactly what Joseph was feeling and planning
- and the Angel told him " DO NOT FEAR " getting married and having SEXUAL RELATIONS because there was no sexual act between Mary and another man, the child conceived in His new { to be } wife was from the Sprit Holy.
why would God leave Mary and Joseph and the readers of the Bible to understand and be assured that a husband and wife relationship should be resumed without any concern or fear
If it was important for Joseph and Mary to not have marital relations why did God leave Joseph this message instead of just warning him that it would be disrespectful for to have a sexual relationship ?
this is Rome demanding that Mary should not be a wife to Joseph - not the demands of the messenger angel of God.
Mat 1:20 seeing - the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, -
fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: - for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
:25 And knew her not until - she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
we see 3 facts here
1. The angels assurance - husband and wife relationship should be resumed - with no concern or fear
2. Joseph accepted Mary as a wife - and married her
3. Joseph did not have intercourse with his wife - until she bore her firstborn son
The word of God has made it known that - Catholics simply have no scriptures for their faith
even if Mary remained a virgin the Scriptures place no value in the virginity of Mary,
Mary herself, was not guarding her virginity - she was planning to marry a husband and Joseph was hurt, worried and fearful because he believed his wife had cheated and fornicated against him -
THIS SEXUAL SITUATION - caused Joseph to begin plans to divorce Mary.
in conclusion, the scriptures show that Joseph and Mary did stay together, even at 12 years after his birth
Mary and Joseph are still married, still together as mother and father - together searching for Jesus when he disappears and is found in the temple
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us?
behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Mary and Joseph were not even involved in the ministry of Jesus - they are mother and father, husband and wife / married - looking franticly for their lost son.
.
.
but after his resurrection he returned to earth as the Spirit - -we can receive his spirit and be saved from our sins - Jesus became lost that we may be found
sincere pleasantries unto all beloved brothers and sisters.
what is really amazing is Mary was of the Seed or Linage of King David
this is exactly why she was chosen to bear the Lord, Jesus, The Anointing.
In fact, the angel Gabriel was sent from God directly and specifically speaking to Mary saying that
Luk 1: 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob
If the Angel Of The Lord - Gabriel, directly told Joseph he could take Mary as his wife and told him to not have any fear or worries about taking Mary as his wife -
having a marital husband and wife sexual relationship - this - was the entire point of this message from the Angel
Joseph was planning on putting away his fiancé and putting off the marriage - Joseph was worried and hurt because in his mind - mary had already had sex with someone and in the mind of Joseph, Mary had cheated and had sex and had become pregnant.
Mary had cheated on him and committed adultery and fornicated a nd now was suddenly pregnant. ?
Joseph was hurt, worried and even in fear and anxiety - his new wife was adulterous and had committed adultery against him
But the Angel of God knew exactly what Joseph was feeling and planning
- and the Angel told him " DO NOT FEAR " getting married and having SEXUAL RELATIONS because there was no sexual act between Mary and another man, the child conceived in His new { to be } wife was from the Sprit Holy.
why would God leave Mary and Joseph and the readers of the Bible to understand and be assured that a husband and wife relationship should be resumed without any concern or fear
If it was important for Joseph and Mary to not have marital relations why did God leave Joseph this message instead of just warning him that it would be disrespectful for to have a sexual relationship ?
this is Rome demanding that Mary should not be a wife to Joseph - not the demands of the messenger angel of God.
Mat 1:20 seeing - the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, -
fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: - for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
:25 And knew her not until - she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
we see 3 facts here
1. The angels assurance - husband and wife relationship should be resumed - with no concern or fear
2. Joseph accepted Mary as a wife - and married her
3. Joseph did not have intercourse with his wife - until she bore her firstborn son
The word of God has made it known that - Catholics simply have no scriptures for their faith
even if Mary remained a virgin the Scriptures place no value in the virginity of Mary,
Mary herself, was not guarding her virginity - she was planning to marry a husband and Joseph was hurt, worried and fearful because he believed his wife had cheated and fornicated against him -
THIS SEXUAL SITUATION - caused Joseph to begin plans to divorce Mary.
in conclusion, the scriptures show that Joseph and Mary did stay together, even at 12 years after his birth
Mary and Joseph are still married, still together as mother and father - together searching for Jesus when he disappears and is found in the temple
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us?
behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Mary and Joseph were not even involved in the ministry of Jesus - they are mother and father, husband and wife / married - looking franticly for their lost son.
.
.
but after his resurrection he returned to earth as the Spirit - -we can receive his spirit and be saved from our sins - Jesus became lost that we may be found
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The Nice Centurion
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Re: The virgin birth
Post #10A real good question: Is it regular belief that Mary stayed miraculously virgin even during and after giving birth to Jesus?
Catholics like that thought. One female saint had visions of Jesus birth which wondrously happened without deflowering Mary, leaving her hymen intact.
Catholics like that thought. One female saint had visions of Jesus birth which wondrously happened without deflowering Mary, leaving her hymen intact.
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""Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates
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