Israel and Palestine - Whose land is it?

[fewwillfindit]

I received an email today, posted below, and thought it would make a good topic for debate. I cannot vouch for the facts posted therein and it provided no source for the contents. This was one of those emails that people forward to everyone in their address book (which I hate), most of which are urban legend and pure bunk. What do you think?

NETANYAHU AT HIS BEST


Even those who arent particularly sympathetic to Israel s Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas shelling of Israel .

The interviewer asked him: How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?

Netanyahu: Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?

Interviewer: Why not?

Netanyahu: Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that the war was caused by Germany s aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London , the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden , burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen , some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish childrens hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel s occupation of Arab lands. His response was, Its our land. The reporter was stunned " read below Its our land Its important information since we dont get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation:


BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY


1. Nationhood and Jerusalem : Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand (2000) years before the rise of Islam.

2 Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem , they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Quran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem . Mohammed never came to Jerusalem .

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem .

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews . Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLOs Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel .

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel .

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Questions for debate:

1) Is this revisionist history or merely anti-Arab propaganda?

2) Do Palestinians have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or does it rightfully belong to Israel?

[nogods]

Where did you come up with that 1312 BCE Israel a nation date?

And that conquest date? What was that a conquest of?

How do these dates conform to your newly discovered 1628 BCE Exodus?

Canaanites or Palestinians have occupied that region long before Israel existed. They were called Phoenicians at one time and they used to control Jerusalem about 2000BCE.

I have found the evidence for the supposed United Monarchy lacking to such an extent I must conclude it to be fictional or at least historically displaced.

[cnorman18]

Where did you come up with that 1312 BCE Israel a nation date?

And that conquest date? What was that a conquest of?

How do these dates conform to your newly discovered 1628 BCE Exodus?

Canaanites or Palestinians have occupied that region long before Israel existed. They were called Phoenicians at one time and they used to control Jerusalem about 2000BCE.

I have found the evidence for the supposed United Monarchy lacking to such an extent I must conclude it to be fictional or at least historically displaced.

Um, this is from post #12 on page 2 of this thread:

I'll happily grant all of that; all that [points #1-8 in the OP] was nonsense, or at least distorted. I admit I was careless, and wrong, when I characterized the information as "accurate," but I will point out that I DID say it was "selective," not "fair or balanced" and "propaganda."

[nogods]

Jews against the occupation.

http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org ... tions.html

[cnorman18]

Jews against the occupation.

http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org ... tions.html

Yeah, there are a great many of those. You'll find a huge list of them here.

Here is the list of Palestinian peace organizations dedicated to ending terror:

[Murad]

both sides are guilty, as you say, and as I agree, if belatedly.

Ok now lets take this to another level.
Is it right to justify Hamas' crimes because Israel does it?
or
Is it right to Justify Israel's crimes because Hamas does it?

Is it right for Hamas to value a palestinian life more than an israeli life?
Is it right for Israel to value an israeli life more than a palestinian life?

This is how we go back & forth; & this is why i have always had the belief both sides are guilty.

Hamas being recognized as a terror organisation has terrorists for leaders.
Israel being recognized as a democratic government; has had terrorists for leaders.

I dont know why, but by comparison, Israel is starting to look a bit like hamas; expect ofcourse it has nuclear capabilities & a superior military & ultimate authority in the region.

I understand why Israeli's have huge biases towards palestinians.
Do you understand why Palestinians have huge biases towards Israelis?

The Israelis, again in my opinion, have demonstrated that they are willing to compromise to an enormous extent; giving up 97% of the West Bank, ALL of Gaza, and being open to further compromises and further negotiation.

But: I do not see that the Palestinians are willing to compromise even to the bare, minimal, absolutely essential extent of recognizing Israels right to exist, nor to giving up a single square inch of land in the Middle East including Israel proper. That is a core issue which no one seems willing to address. Your yourself seem to maintain that the very existence of Israel is a problem here, and as long as that is the case, I dont see what there is to talk about. Demanding, or even suggesting, that the solution is Israel commiting national suicide is not a basis for negotiation or debate -- or even civil conversation. As long as that remains the Palestinian position and the goal of the Arabs, the war will never, ever end. When it comes to compromise, therefore -- at least in terms of ultimate goals -- the ball is very much in the Palestinians court. The Israelis want to survive; the Arabs want them dead or exiled. No common ground at all.

I'll have to agree with you; there is no common ground.
But do you know why?
Trust me, its not muslim nature to hate & kill Jews, there is an ultimate reason behind the ideology of Palestinians; i want to see if you know why Palestinians hate Israel so much.

Now, on the issue of war crimes; I agree (and, for the record, have never denied) that the Israelis have committed them.

True, but you indirectly justified Israel's war crimes(numerous times, read back on your posts)

Again, there are nuances and degrees of guilt, but set all that aside for now. My main problem with the war crimes issue is with the fact that the UN, which is continually presented here as an impartial and unbiased arbiter, has directed virtually ALL its attention and virtually ALL of its sanctions at the Israelis, while the crimes of the Palestinian terrorists have received virtually none at all.

In light of that FACT, its hard to see how or why the Israelis would be inclined to respond to resolutions, sanctions, etc., from the UN when their enemies receive, in effect, the implicit blessing of the UN on the war crimes directed against them. Very few Jews take the UN seriously as an impartial or fair arbiter of this conflict, and there are very, very good reasons indeed for that. Denying or ignoring these FACTS is neither intellectually honest nor conducive to rational, civil or fair debate on the conflict.

You've raised this issue earlier on, and i remember agreeing with you.
But there is a reason behind everything, the only reason Israel is getting more media attention; is because it is the Supreme party in this conflict.
Trust me, its human nature for people to observe the supreme entity of a conflict more often.
Is it fair? No; ofcourse not.

Its also a fact that though the issue of Israeli war crimes is raised in a theoretical or general fashion, whenever individual incidents are alleged, investigation shows that those Israeli crimes do not appear out of thin air or without provocation; and the Palestinian crimes and terrorist attacks that preceded and provoked them are generally ignored as if they never happened and did not exist, and the issue presented as if the Israelis ought to have done nothing at all.

Here is where i believe we are going to disagree.
Again; indirectly(nethertheless) you seem to justify 'war crimes' because you believe it was provoked for. I dont like this type of reasoning at all.
Furthermore; even if the democratic government of Israel is provoked; it is no excuse to fire white phosphorus onto civilian shelter; and it is no excuse for Israel to use older missiles that have terrible, terrible accuracy, when one has GPS guided missiles that are accurate within a meter or two.
You telling me war crimes are provoked for, is like me telling you Hamas killing innocent farmers are 'provoked' for. It is absolutely ridiculous; and the events must be examined in the context of their occurrence.

The demand appears, at least, to be that the Israelis ought to just accept Palestinian terror attacks and mass murders, and allow them to continue with total impunity, without responding to them in any way

Wrong, i don't know where your getting this.

The demand is; Israel should not justify its barbaric acts because Hamas does it.
The demand is; Israel should use its more sophisticated military technology instead of using older less accurate missiles.
The demand is; Israel should not use inhumane weaponry such as white phosphorus that has left countless innocent civilians mutilated.
The demand is; children & civilians should not be justified as 'collateral damage'.

Since no one -- I repeat, NO ONE, not the UN, not Israels Arab neighbors, not the Palestinian people themselves, and not the US, which is not in a position to do anything other than provide financial and diplomatic support -- are doing ANYTHING WHATEVER to stop or alleviate these attacks, and all but the last are in fact ASSISTING those attacks by, in effect, pretending that they dont exist or are totally justified -- why would anyone expect the Israelis to do anything other than take care of their own? No one else is.

Ok so lets get one thing straight
You believe every country is ASSISTING Hamas' terrorist attacks by not doing anything?

The hypocrisy here is right in your face.

If there is any country that should be accused of ASSISTING(thats how you put it) of war crimes it should be America. Period.
Who other than America provides billions & billions of Military aid to the Israeli army?

What on earth do those other countries do that assist Hamas?
Besides Iran that has been accused of supplying them arms, do you know any government that currently provides billions/millions/thousands/hundreds of dollars in military aid to Hamas? Please name me some with verifable evidence.

You have said that no one is denying and/or excusing Palestinian terrorism or claiming that it isnt happening, or that it isnt relevant. As a matter of actual, practical fact, that simply isnt true. According to DeBunkem and this pro-Palestine website, there have been at least 65 actions of the UN directed at Israel, and at the Palestinians, none at all. SOMEONE is certainly denying and/or excusing Palestinian terrorism, and that someone is the very body that is continually being touted as the fair and unbiased arbiter here. Until THAT problem is also solved -- till the UN actually begins to give crimes AGAINST the Israelis the same attention and pressure given to the crimes of the Israelis themselves -- the Israelis have no reason whatever to change their behavior.

That is a totally ridiculous demand i must say.
Its human nature & natural convention that the superior party of a conflict receives more attention & criticism.
Not only is Palestine borded up & sealed by Israel(illegally under Geneva); it is also the victim of war crimes by a Democratic Government(compare that to Hamas which is a terrorist organisation); and you wonder why Israel receives more attention?
Thus i find your ideology wrong, and i believe you should evaluate your position in belief:
till the UN actually begins to give crimes AGAINST the Israelis the same attention and pressure given to the crimes of the Israelis themselves -- the Israelis have no reason whatever to change their behavior.

"What do the Palestinians have to lose," by continuing the terror? An independent state. Freedom to live without fear of Israeli retaliation. Freedom to live without being deliberate placed in harms way by their own leaders. Their lives. Their nation.

What do they have to gain by stopping the murder campaign? All of those things, as well as supportive neighbors who wish to help their new nation succeed and become prosperous, since secure and prosperous neighbors make for peace and security for the Israelis themselves.

So true.

Its time to stop mourning the foundation of Israel and hoping that Israel and the Israeli people will cease to exist. COMPROMISE begins -- BEGINS -- with dropping the idea that Israel has no right to exist and must be destroyed.

That is the compromise from Hamas; but the Israelis shouldn't expect them to suddenly give up & agree to Israels terms.
I believe(personally); Israel should work towards winning the hearts & minds of the Palestinians; they seem to do a great job of making arabs hostile; i wonder with the right governance if they could do the contrary.

NEXT must come an end to the UNs turning a blind eye to Palestinian terrorism and the murder of Israeli civilians. When the Israelis feel that they are not entirely alone and unsupported in the part of the world where they live, and that they actually have the support of the international community, they will have motivation to end their own excesses and overreactions. As it stands, they have none.

They have America; aint that good enough? Why not?
Who else would supply billions of military aid to Israel?

They have made astonishingly generous and clearly sincere and serious offers in the past, over and over, and that is proven by the acceptance of those offers in the past -- by Egypt, which regained the Sinai in exchange for nothing more than a peace treaty, and there is peace between Israel and Egypt, once mortal enemies, as we speak. But in the West Bank and Gaza, those offers have been repaid with nothing but more murder.

I fail to see what more the Israelis can do, other than just lie down and die by the thousands. That seems to be, in practical terms, the only other choice they are being offered other than fighting back -- as is also said of the Palestinians -- with all the means at their disposal.

Like i said earlier; yes the Israeli position is very, very hard.
But you should never forget; no matter how biased your beliefs are; that the Palestinian people as a whole were made to live as refugees in land that they owned for generations. Decades/Centuries of hard work were lost in a sudden invasion that scarred the hearts & minds of the palestinians; and they grew barbaric in anger and hate.

If you want my opinion; on what the Israeli Government should make first in its 'to do list'.
Instead of offering useless peace treaties to Hamas; it should work on winning the hearts & minds of the Palestinian people. It should evaluate its current governance & work towards achieving the contrary of what it has achieved(hostility).

[nogods]

The Jews lost their homeland when they couldn't defeat the Romans after 5 failed rebellions and got kicked out. After 2000 years do they really require a homeland?

Or we could talk about the kind gentle torture Israel does on its prisoners. I remember one story where a man confessed to being a terrorist when he actually wasn't. They asked him why he would confess to being a terrorist when he wasn't. He said it was the only way to get the Israelis to stop torturing him. The US should not support a state which supports torture.

[fredonly]

1) Is this revisionist history or merely anti-Arab propaganda?

It's not revisionist history, but it is selective.

2) Do Palestinians have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or does it rightfully belong to Israel?

Palestinians have the greater right to Gaza and West Bank.

I'll add a related question, and provide my answer:
Does Israel have a right to the territory of Israel?

Israel has a de facto right to exist in the area. They do not have an intrinsic right. Palestinians have a similar right, and these overlapping rights are the source of the current situation. Palestinians who wish Israel to cease to exist are wrong. Israelis who deny Palestinians have a right to self determination, and sovereign territory are wrong. From an idealistic standpoint, the most just solution would be a single, democratic nation with equal rights to Arabs, Jews or anyone else. This would be a solution similar to the ending of apartheid in South Africa. However, the perpetual violence that has been occurring for the past 60+ years makes this impractical, so separate states are required. Since ideal justice is impractical, the challenge is to find a solution that minimizes (but cannot possibly eliminate) injustice.

[cnorman18]

I am no longer willing to devote so much time to these debates, but Ive decided I cant leave this post entirely unanswered.

Demanding, or even suggesting, that the solution is Israel commiting national suicide is not a basis for negotiation or debate -- or even civil conversation. As long as that remains the Palestinian position and the goal of the Arabs, the war will never, ever end. When it comes to compromise, therefore -- at least in terms of ultimate goals -- the ball is very much in the Palestinians court. The Israelis want to survive; the Arabs want them dead or exiled. No common ground at all.

I'll have to agree with you; there is no common ground.
But do you know why?
Trust me, its not muslim nature to hate & kill Jews, there is an ultimate reason behind the ideology of Palestinians; i want to see if you know why Palestinians hate Israel so much.

Is there something beyond the claim, which is largely myth -- see below -- that the Israelis stole their land?

I think much of the explanation for that hatred lies in the vicious anti-Semitism, as in old-school Nazi hatemongering, that is fed to Palestinians from the cradle. The Blood Libel is widely accepted as fact in the Arab world, and is deliberately promoted in the Arab media. Jews were portrayed committing ritual murder of Muslim children on Arab television, and that program got enormous ratings all over the Arab world. The most vicious and ugly caricatures and stereotypes of Jews are routinely exhibited in Arab newspapers and magazines. That notorious and wholly evil forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, is still a bestseller among Arabs and held to be genuine; during the infamous Durban UN conference on racism, it was being promoted and sold openly. Muslims are regularly taught by their religious leaders that Jews are the descendants of dogs, pigs and apes, and that those who murder Jewish women and children are martyrs and courageous heroes.

How could the Palestinians NOT hate Jews? They have been taught from birth that hating Jews is their religious and cultural duty.

Its also a fact that though the issue of Israeli war crimes is raised in a theoretical or general fashion, whenever individual incidents are alleged, investigation shows that those Israeli crimes do not appear out of thin air or without provocation; and the Palestinian crimes and terrorist attacks that preceded and provoked them are generally ignored as if they never happened and did not exist, and the issue presented as if the Israelis ought to have done nothing at all.

Here is where i believe we are going to disagree.
Again; indirectly(nethertheless) you seem to justify 'war crimes' because you believe it was provoked for. I dont like this type of reasoning at all.
Furthermore; even if the democratic government of Israel is provoked; it is no excuse to fire white phosphorus onto civilian shelter; and it is no excuse for Israel to use older missiles that have terrible, terrible accuracy, when one has GPS guided missiles that are accurate within a meter or two.
You telling me war crimes are provoked for, is like me telling you Hamas killing innocent farmers are 'provoked' for. It is absolutely ridiculous; and the events must be examined in the context of their occurrence.

The demand appears, at least, to be that the Israelis ought to just accept Palestinian terror attacks and mass murders, and allow them to continue with total impunity, without responding to them in any way

Wrong, i don't know where your getting this.

The demand is; Israel should not justify its barbaric acts because Hamas does it.
The demand is; Israel should use its more sophisticated military technology instead of using older less accurate missiles.
The demand is; Israel should not use inhumane weaponry such as white phosphorus that has left countless innocent civilians mutilated.
The demand is; children & civilians should not be justified as 'collateral damage'.

Ill concede the point about the use of more accurate weapons; I dont know the reasoning behind that, and I dont justify it. But let me ask you what I asked fredonly; when Hamas launches rockets from the front yard of an apartment house filled with civilians, and quickly packs up and leaves in order to set up for another attack from an elementary schoolyard before the Israelis have time to respond on the ground with actions that do NOT endanger those civilians, what would you suggest the Israelis do?

Sorry. Nothing, because civilians would be endangered by responding quickly is not acceptable. Using civilians as human shields in this manner is a war crime itself, and the Geneva Convention places the responsibility for any deaths of civilians that result from using them as human shields on those who use that immoral and illegal tactic, as the Palestinians do, deliberately and routinely.

Now if you agree that that tactic is illegal and wrong, you are agreeing that many, if not most, Israeli war crimes ARE justified, and are not, in fact, actually war crimes, but the result of the crimes of the Palestinians! If this is justifying Israeli crimes, so be it; but it is NOT reasonable to expect the Israelis to do NOTHING in response to these tactics, and the deaths of Palestinian civilians ought to be more carefully examined to find out who, exactly, has put them in the line of fire. In my opinion, the majority of the deaths of Palestinian civilians is due to these illegal and immoral tactics and is not the fault of the Israelis.

As long as that issue remains unacknowledged and nothing is done about it, the Israelis, I say again, have no reason whatever to stop responding and causing civilian deaths in those situations. Protesting the deaths of Palestinians, noting their numbers, and so on, without dealing with these issues, is neither honest nor fair.

Since no one -- I repeat, NO ONE, not the UN, not Israels Arab neighbors, not the Palestinian people themselves, and not the US, which is not in a position to do anything other than provide financial and diplomatic support -- are doing ANYTHING WHATEVER to stop or alleviate these attacks, and all but the last are in fact ASSISTING those attacks by, in effect, pretending that they dont exist or are totally justified -- why would anyone expect the Israelis to do anything other than take care of their own? No one else is.

Ok so lets get one thing straight
You believe every country is ASSISTING Hamas' terrorist attacks by not doing anything?

The hypocrisy here is right in your face.

If there is any country that should be accused of ASSISTING(thats how you put it) of war crimes it should be America. Period.
Who other than America provides billions & billions of Military aid to the Israeli army?

What on earth do those other countries do that assist Hamas?
Besides Iran that has been accused of supplying them arms, do you know any government that currently provides billions/millions/thousands/hundreds of dollars in military aid to Hamas? Please name me some with verifable evidence.

Standing by silently while tactics like those above are used -- as well as suicide-bomb and missile attacks that deliberately target unarmed civilians, whom no one even alleges to be collateral damage, but who are consciously chosen to be the primary targets of attacks, is what I mean by assisting, and I made that perfectly clear in what I said above. You, on the other hand, dont acknowledge that assistance and put words in my mouth by claiming that Im referring to active military assistance. That is also evident, anyway; those explosives and missiles and weapons come from somewhere -- but that is not what Im talking about. By decrying Israeli actions and saying nothing about the deadly effects of illegal and immoral Palestinian tactics, Israels enemies are inarguably and absolutely assisting in the terror campaign. Propaganda support and assistance is still assistance.

You have said that no one is denying and/or excusing Palestinian terrorism or claiming that it isnt happening, or that it isnt relevant. As a matter of actual, practical fact, that simply isnt true. According to DeBunkem and this pro-Palestine website, there have been at least 65 actions of the UN directed at Israel, and at the Palestinians, none at all. SOMEONE is certainly denying and/or excusing Palestinian terrorism, and that someone is the very body that is continually being touted as the fair and unbiased arbiter here. Until THAT problem is also solved -- till the UN actually begins to give crimes AGAINST the Israelis the same attention and pressure given to the crimes of the Israelis themselves -- the Israelis have no reason whatever to change their behavior.

That is a totally ridiculous demand i must say.
Its human nature & natural convention that the superior party of a conflict receives more attention & criticism.

More, maybe; but ALL of the attention & criticism? In propaganda terms, the Palestinians are the superior party here, according to your own reasoning. I would concede that the Palestinians are winning the propaganda and PR war, which is of course their goal; but that ongoing victory is directly due to the complicity of the world in failing to acknowledge and/or excusing their inarguably illegal, criminal and immoral tactics. Civilian deaths which are inarguably the fault of the Palestinian tactic of deliberately placing Palestinian civilians in the line of fire are being laid at the feet of the Israelis, with no acknowledgment of the Palestinian war crimes that lie behind them. That is not right.

Again: Tell me what the Israelis should do about those tactics -- and, again, nothing is not an acceptable answer. The GOAL of the Palestinians is to murder Israelis and do so with either (1) impunity, or (2) a PR victory that counts on their own crimes being ignored -- which they invariably are.

You keep saying, in effect, Yeah, all this isnt fair; too bad, but thats just the way it is, and the Israelis have to deal with it as it is. And that is hypocritical nonsense.

"What do the Palestinians have to lose," by continuing the terror? An independent state. Freedom to live without fear of Israeli retaliation. Freedom to live without being deliberate placed in harms way by their own leaders. Their lives. Their nation.

What do they have to gain by stopping the murder campaign? All of those things, as well as supportive neighbors who wish to help their new nation succeed and become prosperous, since secure and prosperous neighbors make for peace and security for the Israelis themselves.

So true.

And therefore?

The answer to therefore, apparently, is therefore, nothing, by your reasoning.

Its time to stop mourning the foundation of Israel and hoping that Israel and the Israeli people will cease to exist. COMPROMISE begins -- BEGINS -- with dropping the idea that Israel has no right to exist and must be destroyed.

That is the compromise from Hamas; but the Israelis shouldn't expect them to suddenly give up & agree to Israels terms.
I believe(personally); Israel should work towards winning the hearts & minds of the Palestinians; they seem to do a great job of making arabs hostile; i wonder with the right governance if they could do the contrary.

From what Ive seen here, winning the hearts & minds of the Palestinians is defined as allowing the murder of Israeli civilians without responding to those murders. I dont think thats a solution, thanks.

NEXT must come an end to the UNs turning a blind eye to Palestinian terrorism and the murder of Israeli civilians. When the Israelis feel that they are not entirely alone and unsupported in the part of the world where they live, and that they actually have the support of the international community, they will have motivation to end their own excesses and overreactions. As it stands, they have none.

They have America; aint that good enough? Why not?
Who else would supply billions of military aid to Israel?

Thats good enough for maintaining a war, certainly; but for making peace while the attacks continue unabated? Sorry, thats ridiculous on its face. I hate your guts and will keep murdering your women and children, and no one on our side is even going to acknowledge that; but you have a powerful friend, so its not a problem. Does that really make sense to you?

They have made astonishingly generous and clearly sincere and serious offers in the past, over and over, and that is proven by the acceptance of those offers in the past -- by Egypt, which regained the Sinai in exchange for nothing more than a peace treaty, and there is peace between Israel and Egypt, once mortal enemies, as we speak. But in the West Bank and Gaza, those offers have been repaid with nothing but more murder.

I fail to see what more the Israelis can do, other than just lie down and die by the thousands. That seems to be, in practical terms, the only other choice they are being offered other than fighting back -- as is also said of the Palestinians -- with all the means at their disposal.

Like i said earlier; yes the Israeli position is very, very hard.

But thats as far as you go. You are still saying that its up to the Israelis to change this situation, and in practical terms, you ask nothing at all of the Palestinian side. If youre going to claim that Im justifying Israeli crimes, what are YOU doing? Saying Yes, isnt it difficult is meaningless. Do you have any concrete suggestions that dont amount to just accepting mass murder and being nice in return?

But you should never forget; no matter how biased your beliefs are; that the Palestinian people as a whole were made to live as refugees in land that they owned for generations. Decades/Centuries of hard work were lost in a sudden invasion that scarred the hearts & minds of the palestinians; and they grew barbaric in anger and hate.

As Ive posted on another thread here, thats largely a myth.

Look here, here, and here; Note this:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Look here, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The idea that Israel was stolen from the Arabs is, simply put, a myth; and the proof of that, as I keep saying without response or acknowledgment, is that very many Arabs did not leave during the War of Independence; they remained in Israel, were left in peace, and they and their descendants live in Israel today. Arabs in Israel own land, do business, vote, serve in the Knesset, worship freely, and live as full, peaceful and participatory citizens of their nation. Other than Tunisia and Morocco, are there Jews in Arab countries who can say that? Will there be Jews who may do that in the Judenrein Palestinian state?

The idea that the Israelis brutally invaded Palestine, murdered thousands of Arabs, and drove them off their ancestral lands is simply untrue. There were atrocities, but those occurred on both sides; and the FACT is that the Arab refugees who left Israel were welcome to return in 1948. Thats a matter of record, and the reasons it didnt happen are not the fault of the Israelis.

From Resolution 194 of the United Nations General Assembly, passed on December 11, 1948, before the end of the War of Independence: Notice the portion marked in boldface.

Article 11 reads:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

The Arab nations initially opposed this resolution, and few Arabs took the offer, specifically because of the refusal of the nations which attacked Israel to accept peace. Any Arabs who wanted to come home at the very beginning could have done so. Claiming that the right of return should extend two generations into the future, when a few hundred thousand refugees -- carefully and deliberately made to remain refugees for 62 years, unlike any refugees in human history anywhere in the world -- have multiplied into millions, and still have no intention of living in peace with their neighbours, is beyond ridiculous, no matter how heavily that idea is promoted in the Arab world.

If you want my opinion; on what the Israeli Government should make first in its 'to do list'.
Instead of offering useless peace treaties to Hamas; it should work on winning the hearts & minds of the Palestinian people. It should evaluate its current governance & work towards achieving the contrary of what it has achieved(hostility).

While the terror continues unabated and without comment from anyone on the other side, or from the supposedly unbiased and fair UN. Sorry.

Now, to quote you back to yourself, in part:

But you should never forget; no matter how biased your beliefs are; that the Israeli people as a whole have been made to live under constant and unrelenting attack in land that they have now owned for generations themselves. Decades of hard work have been marred by mass murder and terrorism that have scarred the hearts & minds of the Israelis; and they have tried NOT to grow barbaric in anger and hate, in that they still live in peace with the Arabs in their land and have NOT resorted to simple extermination tactics and the deliberate, consciously planned murder of civilians as primary targets, even in places where terrorism is supported and encouraged by the majority of the people who live there.

Now, instead of just saying, Yes, how sad, how unfair, with nothing further to say, how about this?

How about if the Palestinians start working on winning the hearts & minds of the Israeli people, and stop murdering them -- and maybe stop deliberately endangering their own people for propaganda purposes while theyre at it? How about some Palestinians, and even the UN, at least acknowledging that those brutal, illegal and immoral tactics are being used and are brutal, illegal and immoral? Can you do THAT, at least, and not implicitly justify them on account of a historical narrative that is neither as simple nor as historically one-sided as you claim?

I still dont see why an end to the murder campaign is not the ONLY acceptable first step toward peace, and you havent convinced me otherwise.

[Murad]

Im not sure whether this debate is going anywhere; its clearly a conflict of subjective thoughts. I still & always will maintain my belief; that both Israel & Palestine are equally to blame.
In the Ottomon empire Palestine was owned(legally) by the Palestinian people; and on the collapse of the empire; the middle eastern nations were born; and thus Israel was rightfully the land of the palestinian people.

As i've said before; the debate is not: 'Who commits war crimes more often'; if it was i'd without a doubt say Hamas. Nevertheless; War crimes Cannot be justified; and i find it really sad you believe it can be; hopefully you'll change your opinion sometime in the future.

Furthermore; you brought up hamas using human shields; i've said before & i'll say again; it takes two to tango:



Both sides are guilty as each other; its not morally right to justify Israels barbaric acts using flawed reasoning; the same way hamas killing civilians doesn't justify its 'fight for freedom'.


I think i'll leave it here; we both know subjective conflicts usually have no end and its a matter of opinion.

Enjoyed talking with you.

Murad

[LiamOS]

I don't know if it's relevant to the point of this discussion, but has the nature of ownership of land been discussed yet?
To me, this seems more important than which side is committing more atrocities, as both have reached a level that is simply despicable.