Russia Attacks Ukraine

[Diogenes]

For the first time since 1939 a major European power, Russia, has attacked another country in Europe, Ukraine. We have not seen an analogous situation since Germany attacked Poland setting off World War 2. Surprisingly we have Neville Chamberlain like appeasement/isolationist responses from Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson. Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

[Diogenes]

Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

Second, as someone who grew up during the Reagan years, I never thought I'd see the day when (some) Republicans/conservatives/Christians are the ones defending and excusing a Russian invasion of sovereign country. Polls have shown that Republican voters have a more favorable view of Putin than they do of Pres. Biden and they view Putin as a "very strong leader". I'd seen studies showing that evangelical Christians tend towards authoritarianism, so I guess we're seeing how that mentality is applied in the real world.

Republicans support Russia invading Ukraine? What is the evidence? Poll numbers?

I'm asking because I've seen every news station coverage, from Fox News to MSNBC. All seem to condemn Russia including their guest speakers/commentators. Tucker Carlson and Trump made some remarks but that's just two people, certainly shouldn't draw conclusions based on that alone. If I can find a poll then I'll be sure to post that here.

I'm only saying that Trump, not the GOP, has been very soft on his buddy Putin; that T. Carlson has repeatedly said, Why should we care about Ukraine.
Trump has refused to condemn Putin. Instead he implies that this is somehow Biden's fault. The Iowa Gov. in her remarks in response to the State of the Union Speech, blamed Biden and attributed Putin's attack to the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, a withdrawal Trump agreed with and initiated.

If you support Trump, the leader of the GOP, then you support someone who will not speak out against Putin's attack on Ukraine.

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's actually sickening, millions and millions of people are now going to suffer all because a bunch of nutjobs insisted on expanding NATO.

Wow! How far off can you be? Are you the typical Putin/Trump loving Republican who supports those two dictators over USA and NATO?

No, I'm not a Republican, I despise Trump and I do not love Putin, I am not a conservative, I love art, classical music, ballet, theater, literature, art galleries, museums and libraries, I'm a liberal for want of a better term, you are insulting me, disagree and explain why by all means but please do not insult me.

NATO is strictly a defense organization.

Why do you think that? it performed offensive bombing campaigns in the heart of Europe in 1995 an 1999, no NATO member had been attacked which is the supposed trigger for NATO action, why do you approve of that but not of Ukraine getting bombed, please explain.

Why would bombing Belgrade be any less of a concern to you than bombing Kiev? they live in the heart of Europe, they are educated working people, their kids go to school, they are Orthodox Christian, they love their families, they read books, watch movies, drive cars, use hospitals, love their city and have lives just as we do, please explain your apparent racism.

At the end of WW2 Russia became the USSR, the proponent of "Godless Communism." They invaded and controlled Eastern Europe. NATO was formed to protect these countries.

The USSR ceased to exist in 1991. The US invaded South Vietnam.

Why would you take Russia's side and not want Ukraine and other INDEPENDENT nations to be able to maintain their independence by a voluntary alliance with others fearing Russia?

What do you believe I have taken "Russia's side"?

At risk of being reprimanded - you are a complete moron.

[Purple Knight]

Why? are you of the opinion that one country can sometimes be justified in thwarting the rights of another? is that it?

I think the answer one would think easiest to give is yes, iff the country whose rights are being violated is itself the aggressor, perhaps against its own people, perhaps against another country.

Personally though I wish everyone would just leave everyone else the heck alone. You're right that there's a double standard with condemnations, Israel and what it does to Palestine versus what Russia does to the Ukraine. And I think it's reasonable to compare this to the Cuban Missile Crisis, just in the other direction. Would the US have physically attacked Cuba if they refused to disarm? Well, the US has attacked on fear of nukes before.

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm only saying that Trump, not the GOP, has been very soft on his buddy Putin; that T. Carlson has repeatedly said, Why should we care about Ukraine.
Trump has refused to condemn Putin. Instead he implies that this is somehow Biden's fault. The Iowa Gov. in her remarks in response to the State of the Union Speech, blamed Biden and attributed Putin's attack to the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, a withdrawal Trump agreed with and initiated.

If you support Trump, the leader of the GOP, then you support someone who will not speak out against Putin's attack on Ukraine.

I'll keep that in mind if or when Trump decides to run for office again. But at this point, he is old news. He would be irrelevant if only the mainstream media would stop giving him attention.

I think the answer one would think easiest to give is yes, iff the country whose rights are being violated is itself the aggressor, perhaps against its own people, perhaps against another country.

Personally though I wish everyone would just leave everyone else the heck alone. You're right that there's a double standard with condemnations, Israel and what it does to Palestine versus what Russia does to the Ukraine. And I think it's reasonable to compare this to the Cuban Missile Crisis, just in the other direction. Would the US have physically attacked Cuba if they refused to disarm? Well, the US has attacked on fear of nukes before.

I've lost trust in the media and in the government leaders. This has led me to also to be skeptical of Western countries. Of course, I already have trust issues and concerns with the totalitarian regimes in the Eastern hemisphere (Russia, China, etc.).

The reason I am skeptical of my own country and the West overall, is because I've seen too much corruption (e.g. government officials violating their own covid-19 restriction rules), greed, political fighting, divisions, etc. If it weren't for that I would be a cheerleader for the West, all-around. Instead, now i find myself holding a small to moderate amount of doubt in anything they tell me. I try to do further research. I find myself being reduced to agreeing with certain ideas/policies, instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt by accepting the total package of ideas that they're offering (based on a presumption that they'll always have good intentions).

It's time that everyone else start to wake up.

[Tcg]

It's actually sickening, millions and millions of people are now going to suffer all because a bunch of nutjobs insisted on expanding NATO.

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[alexxcJRO]

Why?

Seriously? You actually need me to explain why the Cuba missile crisis is an inapt analogy for Russia's invasion of Ukraine? After you just admitted that the main driver of the former (having nuclear missiles in Cuba) doesn't apply to the latter? Sheesh.....

are you of the opinion that one country can sometimes be justified in thwarting the rights of another? is that it?

Every situation is unique, so I'm not about to make blanket statements like that.

Sherlock Holmes is not entirely wrong.

Details may be unique but the overall picture is the same.
After the second world war two major power surfaced: USA and URSS. They divided the world so to speak in two(Berlin wall).
Since then there has been a cold war and a fight for supremacy and hegemony between these two.
The Afghan, Vietnam and most wars on the planet since WW2 wars were really the consequences of the fight for supremacy and hegemony between URSS and USA. Between the communist EST and the democratic WEST. One faction trying to stop the spread of influence of the other.

Lately China, UE have become the third, fourth challengers in this power for supremacy and hegemony.
For obvious reasons(shared convictions, past shared history) UE has align with the USA and China with Russia.

Both these two sides have great machines of propaganda to help them manipulate the masses, the simpletons and hide the obvious fight for power and profit between the powerful, influential, rich, intelligent functioning psychopaths/sociopaths/narcissists at the top. Fight which off course is not done to help the innocent, to stop some evil communist /fascist/military-capitalist complex side.

They do all this at the expanse of the planet and the innocent for they own benefit, profit and sadistic pleasure.

Intelligent functioning psychopaths/sociopath/narcissists because of their nature(anti-social; sadistic; impulsive; low or absent affective empathy; lack of remorse; low or absent anxiety in respect to death, risky stuff; less developed emotional spectrum(cant experience and understand complicated emotions like love, trust, bond)) are more prone to engage in dangerous, manipulative, shallow, materialistic actions.

All our political(fake democracy, communism, socialism) and economical(capitalism) allow for narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths to proliferate at the most top level, in the most powerful, most influential positions.
People quarrelling about which side is evil is what they want. They, the powerful at the top have created this false dichotomy either West is Evil(Est Propaganda) or East is Evil(West Propaganda) when in reality evil and malevolence has infected all spheres of influence and none are innocent.
They want this medium where tribal mentality, bias proliferate and fuel a constant state of war, conflict, opposition.
Dont know about you but the picture is really clear in my head.

[otseng]

we don't give a damn about Russia's concerns

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[otseng]

At risk of being reprimanded - you are a complete moron.

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[otseng]

In general, I'd recommend for people to not accept what their government says in an unquestioning way, and that goes even for Western nations.

That's for sure.

I do wonder, given the realities here, whether Ukraine surrendering is not the most humanitarian option.

The Ukrainians have demonstrated they are willing to die for their cause. Watching Winter on Fire convinced me of this. They do not want to go back under a repressive regime and would rather die fighting for freedom.

It is a very worrying situation, the West has now managed to apply brutal sanctions on Russia (I wonder if this was their true goal all along using Ukraine as a means to an end...). These will lead to growing instability within Russia, I'm sure Putin has many enemies who would like to see him overthrown.

I'm starting to think these sanctions is a trap that Putin engineered for the West to fall into.

The dumb press imply that Putin and the "oligarchs" will suffer but that's ridiculous, these are the very people who can handle this but the average Russian family are already not wealthy.

I agree.

This is a clear fight for hegemony, supremacy, power, and influence over parts of the world/world it self.

I would agree with this too.

It is obviously not about some lofty principle of freedom, democracy or any of that claptrap as this article helps to explain.

I think the test will be what will the US do if China attacks Taiwan.

The final vote was 141 to condemn, 34 abstentions, and only four backing Russia (which cast the fifth "no" vote)Belarus, North Korea, Eritrea, and Syria. So you're in rather....um....interesting company there SH.

The abstentions are interesting...

Trump has refused to condemn Putin.

I tend to think Trump will say anything to get press coverage.

Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

I don't think anything directly related.

Going back to Western media bias, the West portrays Putin as someone who is mentally instable.

"I think hes partially lost his mind," said English. "I dont see this bright line between wholly rational and completely insane. Some of his mannerisms, nervous ticks all of those could suggest something clinical."

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/rus ... tal-state/

I don't think Putin is really all that dumb as the West is trying to paint him. He cannot have achieved amassing $200 billion in net worth without an absurd amount of cunning.

But according to some experts, he may be the wealthiest man in the world with assets totaling up to $200 billion.

https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/vladimir ... orth-2022/

I'm tending to think now there are grander plans than simply annexing Ukraine or even restoring the Soviet Union.

Or it could all just be the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

[Sherlock Holmes]

In general, I'd recommend for people to not accept what their government says in an unquestioning way, and that goes even for Western nations.

That's for sure.

I do wonder, given the realities here, whether Ukraine surrendering is not the most humanitarian option.

The Ukrainians have demonstrated they are willing to die for their cause. Watching Winter on Fire convinced me of this. They do not want to go back under a repressive regime and would rather die fighting for freedom.

Ukraine was already well armed by the West, was armed further during the buildup to the attack and is being armed as we speak. Ukraine is becoming a proxy for NATO to fight Russia, sadly this strategy is intended to consume Russian resources but it will also all but destroy Ukraine.

Just because the press portray this as a proud people struggling together to preserve their freedom does not mean that is the case at all. Ukraine was already very poorly graded as a democracy (ranked 92nd place, even below Burma) and dissent is not tolerated, we have no idea how many ordinary people might have been terrified of NATO membership, many of them and their families are intimately connected to Russia and they know full well that NATO is a bad idea, yet Zelenskiy and his co-conspirators in the 2014 coup, don't care, they are serving their master, they are culpable for this.

It is a very worrying situation, the West has now managed to apply brutal sanctions on Russia (I wonder if this was their true goal all along using Ukraine as a means to an end...). These will lead to growing instability within Russia, I'm sure Putin has many enemies who would like to see him overthrown.

I'm starting to think these sanctions is a trap that Putin engineered for the West to fall into.

That's either sarcasm or you can explain it.

The dumb press imply that Putin and the "oligarchs" will suffer but that's ridiculous, these are the very people who can handle this but the average Russian family are already not wealthy.

I agree.

This is a clear fight for hegemony, supremacy, power, and influence over parts of the world/world it self.

I would agree with this too.

It is obviously not about some lofty principle of freedom, democracy or any of that claptrap as this article helps to explain.

I think the test will be what will the US do if China attacks Taiwan.

Test? the record is all we really need to see that democracy, freedom, self determination are actually feared by the West not cherished.

The final vote was 141 to condemn, 34 abstentions, and only four backing Russia (which cast the fifth "no" vote)Belarus, North Korea, Eritrea, and Syria. So you're in rather....um....interesting company there SH.

The abstentions are interesting...

Trump has refused to condemn Putin.

I tend to think Trump will say anything to get press coverage.

Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

I don't think anything directly related.

Going back to Western media bias, the West portrays Putin as someone who is mentally instable.

"I think hes partially lost his mind," said English. "I dont see this bright line between wholly rational and completely insane. Some of his mannerisms, nervous ticks all of those could suggest something clinical."

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/rus ... tal-state/

I don't think Putin is really all that dumb as the West is trying to paint him. He cannot have achieved amassing $200 billion in net worth without an absurd amount of cunning.

But according to some experts, he may be the wealthiest man in the world with assets totaling up to $200 billion.

https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/vladimir ... orth-2022/

I'm tending to think now there are grander plans than simply annexing Ukraine or even restoring the Soviet Union.

Or it could all just be the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Well lets assume we do know and Putin does want to expand the USSR once more, is that an unreasonable aim given that since 1990 NATO has expanded east to now include (red = former USSR states)

Czech Republic
Hungary
Poland
Bulgaria
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Albania
Croatia
Montenegro
North Macedona
Ukraine?

So given that NATO has grown over the past thirty years by including these fifteen additional states and installing military bases and weapons controlled mostly by Washington, inching closer and closer to the Russian border, why is "Russia restoring the USSR" even remotely regarded as unreasonable? really I'm at a loss to see how such an accusation doesn't draw laughter.

The press - with a straight face - tell us that Russia is a threat and China is a threat! The lunatics have taken over the asylum, truth has no value.

This has been going on for thirty years, almost unchallenged by the Western press, certainly the subject by critics in the West and USSR yet not elevated to the status of dramatic, important news.

Only insanity can legitimize the West's behavior, the press play a large role but each of us needs to stop acting like brainwashed sheep waving our little Ukrainian flags.

This was written by the US's Institute for Policy Studies in 1996, I suggest you all read it: The Costs and Dangers of NATO Expansion.

Notes:

• NATO expansion needlessly provokes Russia.

• Expansion promotes divisions in an already divided region.

• Expansion halts the demilitarization of East-Central Europe and costs alliance members a great deal of money.

and

Although a member of PFP, Russia has steadfastly opposed NATO expansion. Virtually all political forces within the country view this policy as an encirclement, a containment that will lead to greater isolation. Thus, Russia is particularly sensitive about the inclusion of bordering countriesthe Baltics, Ukraine, Moldova. Should the Baltic countries join NATO, Russian officials hinted that they would counter with troop concentrations or tactical nuclear weapons on the border, thus decreasing, not increasing, security in the region.

See that? "Russian officials hinted that they would counter with troop concentrations on the border"? this (massing troops around Ukraine etc) was made clear to the West as a possible consequence 25 years ago! this all predates Putin as Premier by at least three years!

Read that? "Baltic countries", know who they are? Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania - all three welcomed in 2004, eight years after this paper was published! There is nothing whatsoever surprising or unexpected in what Russia has done with Ukraine recently, the West have know for decades of the likely consequences, the TV and press presenting this as a recent, surprise escalation in Russian aggression and expansionism is pack of lies, propaganda, but the propaganda has worked, look at all the sheep.