Universal Citizens Income

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Universal Citizens Income

Post #1

Post by 2ndRateMind »

So, Finland is experimenting with this idea.

As I understand it, everyone gets a minimum basic income sufficient to cover their basic needs; rent, bills, food, etc.

If they want more than that, they can get a job, offer a service, build a corporation, whatever.

The advantage is that no one is homeless, and no one starves. The disadvantage is a higher tax rate on those earning more than the basic essentials.

Do you have an opinion on this arrangement?

Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Universal Citizens Income

Post #2

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[Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

What constitutes basic needs; rent, bills, food, etc. and who decides that?

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Post #3

Post by 2ndRateMind »

I'm not expert on Finland's politics, and they are, as I say, experimenting.

But suppose the income were sufficient to live, if not well, then at least without pressing want.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post #4

Post by bluethread »

2ndRateMind wrote: I'm not expert on Finland's politics, and they are, as I say, experimenting.

But suppose the income were sufficient to live, if not well, then at least without pressing want.

Best wishes, 2RM.
What is pressing want? If I feel pressure, because I want something, does that count?

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Re: Universal Citizens Income

Post #5

Post by DanieltheDragon »

bluethread wrote: [Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

What constitutes basic needs; rent, bills, food, etc. and who decides that?
Economists generally decide. The idea has been around for a while also similar to the negative tax concept that was supposed to be implemented with reganomics but never got to the final stages.

I am keen to see how this turns out as it is a proposed solution to the future of automation and machine learning. Essentially they figure out how much cost of living and the income is based off of that.

As advanced automation comes it will displace a more significant amount of the population from working as the bar for work requirements will exceed what most people could attain(not everyone can get a Ph.D. For example).

This will be something to watch.
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Re: Universal Citizens Income

Post #6

Post by bluethread »

DanieltheDragon wrote:
bluethread wrote: [Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

What constitutes basic needs; rent, bills, food, etc. and who decides that?
Economists generally decide. The idea has been around for a while also similar to the negative tax concept that was supposed to be implemented with reganomics but never got to the final stages.
How is it that economists are able to make this decision and the rest of us aren't? I do understand that there is IRS welfare, i.e. refundable tax credits. However, that does not mean that it is meeting the "basic needs". If one does not properly define "basic needs" there is no way of determining whether the program actually works.
I am keen to see how this turns out as it is a proposed solution to the future of automation and machine learning. Essentially they figure out how much cost of living and the income is based off of that.

As advanced automation comes it will displace a more significant amount of the population from working as the bar for work requirements will exceed what most people could attain(not everyone can get a Ph.D. For example).

This will be something to watch.
Why not allow the economy adjust and people to innovate? I am more interested in the other end. What are people going to do when they aren't expected to attain? Quite frankly, I think we have already seen this episode repeatedly in syndication as once great cities, like Detroit, become dystopian wastelands.

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Re: Universal Citizens Income

Post #7

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 6 by bluethread]

Because economists focus their knowledge base in this area. Would you want a plumber to work on heart surgery and a heart surgeon doing your computer programming?

Basic needs in this sense is typically food shelter and clothing. I.e. On X income will person a be able to by c clothes per year pay y rent per year and buy B amount of food. Health care may or may not be a separate issue depending on the country.
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Re: Universal Citizens Income

Post #8

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 6 by bluethread]
Why not allow the economy adjust and people to innovate? I am more interested in the other end. What are people going to do when they aren't expected to attain? Quite frankly, I think we have already seen this episode repeatedly in syndication as once great cities, like Detroit, become dystopian wastelands.
I am sure that's probably what we will do. What is nice is we will have different economies to study. Will Finland's economy shrink or grow and how will that compare to similar economic powers that have a more capitalistic based economy.

We actually haven't seen this episode before as the concept has not actually been implemented. The crash of Detroit hasn't really had much to do with socialism either. More to the implosion of the American car market as they were making an inferior product compared to foreign competition for several decades.
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Post #9

Post by 2ndRateMind »

bluethread wrote:
2ndRateMind wrote: I'm not expert on Finland's politics, and they are, as I say, experimenting.

But suppose the income were sufficient to live, if not well, then at least without pressing want.

Best wishes, 2RM.
What is pressing want? If I feel pressure, because I want something, does that count?
By 'pressing want', I guess I mean fundamental needs, such as food for oneself and family; clean, safe, water; adequate sanitation; climate appropriate clothing; secure shelter; primary education and healthcare, etc. Ie., those basics without which one is so poor as to be said to be in want, rather than just wanting stuff that might be nice to have.

Cheers, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Universal Citizens Income

Post #10

Post by 2ndRateMind »

bluethread wrote: What are people going to do when they aren't expected to attain?
Indeed. On the other hand, many people are expected to attain but prevented from doing so by being locked into a cycle of poverty. It seems somewhat cruel to blame someone for being feckless and workshy when they are poorly educated, badly brought up, can't afford an interview suit, and if they could, can't afford the bus-fare to the job interview. If this situation is widespread, as I suspect it is, worldwide, then a basic citizen's income might provide something of a contribution towards the answer.

At the very least, we can experiment with the idea, and see if the evidence suggests that the outcome is, on balance, likely to be good or bad for society.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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