The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

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The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

I want to discuss the validity of the independents and their effect on the elections.

The effect of independent voters
According to Gallup, 42% of Americans identify as an 'independent' voter, while 30% identify as Republican and 27% as Democrat. This shows that most Americans are not fully committed to either party since the majority are independents. If I broke these stats down state-by-state (as opposed viewing the national average), then this majority stat goes away because registered independents are not heavily concentrated in any state (except New Hampshire). Instead, you'll find states with a big concentration of Democrats or majority of Republicans, with independents occupying some percentage across all or most states. While there is no heavily "independent" party state, but here's where or when these voters will make a difference:
1. In swing states the population of Republicans and Democrats tend to be close in number. For example, the state of Florida has about 5 million registered Democrats and 5 million Republican voters BUT it also has about 3.5 million independent voters (no party affiliation). Here it is easy to see the effect of independent voters if or when the majority of them flocks to one party over the other.

The validity of the Independent voters

I should say that independent voters do not belong to any party. The rationale behind many independent voters is that the main parties have become corrupt, extreme, and too partisan. Being an independent gives you the freedom of mind to agree with and praise a politician like Trump when he's right and to condemn him when he's wrong. To be in any party, it seems you have to remain in a straight jacket and accept the entire political platform of ideas from your party, and then be against all of the ideas of the other party. If you don't believe me then try being a registered Democrat, especially one running for office, and acknowledge anything good from Trump and see the reaction you'll get.

As an independent, you don't necessarily have new views as a third party would. Instead, you can adopt the "good" views from BOTH parties while also coming up with your own views.

For the record, I was a lifelong Democrat, and I'm honestly considering voting for Trump. He seems less extreme compared to the competition. He is the lesser of two evils, imho.

For debate:
1. Do you agree or disagree that independent voters have big effect on elections?
2. Is the thinking behind the independent voter valid? Is it reasonable to remain unaffiliated?
3. Will the number of independent voters continue to increase ?

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

1. Do you agree or disagree that independent voters have big effect on elections?

They have absolutely no effect on who becomes the democratic or republican candidates for president because unless they signed up as one of those two parties they cannot vote in the primaries.

2. Is the thinking behind the independent voter valid? Is it reasonable to remain unaffiliated?

I've only recently registered to vote after Trump became President. I never bothered to vote prior to that in my life. I registered just so I could vote a straight Democratic ticket in the midterms, which I did. Not because I favor democrats over republicans, but simply because Trump is garbage. And so is Pence for that matter.

3. Will the number of independent voters continue to increase ?

Possibly. I almost registered as an Independent, but then I realized that if I did that I wouldn't be able to vote in the Democratic Primaries. So I registered as a Democrat just so I could do that. But I don't necessarily support the Democrats policies. Although I favor their ideals far above the Republican agenda.
AgnosticBoy wrote: For the record, I was a lifelong Democrat, and I'm honestly considering voting for Trump. He seems less extreme compared to the competition. He is the lesser of two evils, imho.
Come November I'm going to vote a straight Democratic ticket again. I really don't even care who's on it or what policies they hope to implement. Those details are truly unimportant as the polices will take care of themselves via the Democratic process.

Trump has already taken America down the sewer. He seems to think that the economy is all that matters. But IMHO, any idiot could have done what he did to make the economy better. All he did was rape the environmental protection laws to allow companies to make a quick buck while polluting our air and water.

Any idiot could do that, and IMHO anyone who is actually ignorant enough to do that is indeed an idiot. Yet this is precisely what Trump has done.

He's also out to destroy the institutions of our free democracy. He should have been impeached and removed from office. I blame the Republican senators for allowing him to get away with his extreme abuse of power.

This is another reason that I wouldn't vote for a Republican. If they can't even control their own president then what good are they?

So I really don't care who the Democratic candidate is. I'm voting a straight democratic ticket in November no matter who's running against Trump.

I honestly don't see how you can even consider supporting Trump after all he's done to destroy the United States of America. Giving him another four years will pretty much guarantee the fall of the USA. And there won't be any recovering from that.

I sure hope the economy isn't a consideration for voters. Because the only reason the economy is going well is because Trump sold out are environment for instant cash. That was probably one of the worst things he actually did. We're going to have an extremely hard time recovering from that damage. And if Trump remains in office for another four years that side of things is only going to go down hill even further.

By the way, it's actually a farce that the economy is doing so hot anyway. What doing well are the stock markets, rich people, and companies. The mill workers, coal miners, auto workers, and all other middle class Americans aren't doing any better than they ever were. So it's a farce to claim that the economy is so great. Not for the average American it's not.

So nope. Neither Trump nor the Republicans are going to get my vote. Call me a Democrat, or call me an Independent. I really don't care. Trump isn't getting my vote now or ever.

The Republicans are frighten to death of this man. They are totally afraid to speak out against him. I've never witnessed such cowardice in my life. They even confessed that what he did was wrong. His own lawyers confessed that what he did was wrong. Yet like frightened little children they were afraid to vote guilty.

And now look at what they have unleashed. He thinks he's invincible now!

You're going to vote to keep that mad house going?

I confess that I can't understand why anyone would do that.
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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

Post #3

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Divine Insight wrote: I honestly don't see how you can even consider supporting Trump after all he's done to destroy the United States of America. Giving him another four years will pretty much guarantee the fall of the USA. And there won't be any recovering from that.

I sure hope the economy isn't a consideration for voters. Because the only reason the economy is going well is because Trump sold out are environment for instant cash. That was probably one of the worst things he actually did. We're going to have an extremely hard time recovering from that damage. And if Trump remains in office for another four years that side of things is only going to go down hill even further.

By the way, it's actually a farce that the economy is doing so hot anyway. What doing well are the stock markets, rich people, and companies. The mill workers, coal miners, auto workers, and all other middle class Americans aren't doing any better than they ever were. So it's a farce to claim that the economy is so great. Not for the average American it's not.

So nope. Neither Trump nor the Republicans are going to get my vote. Call me a Democrat, or call me an Independent. I really don't care. Trump isn't getting my vote now or ever.

The Republicans are frighten to death of this man. They are totally afraid to speak out against him. I've never witnessed such cowardice in my life. They even confessed that what he did was wrong. His own lawyers confessed that what he did was wrong. Yet like frightened little children they were afraid to vote guilty.

And now look at what they have unleashed. He thinks he's invincible now!

You're going to vote to keep that mad house going?

I confess that I can't understand why anyone would do that.
I'm by no means trying to get anyone to vote for Trump. But what I disagree with are those who think putting in a Democrat would do much better. When you factor in the problems from BOTH (Dems. and Repubs.) sides, then perhaps you can begin to see why I can "tolerate" Trump.

One economic accomplishment he's done is with his trade deals with China, Mexico, and Canada. He's received bipartisan support for the USMCA deal which is expected to keep and create jobs, as opposed to the trend of losing jobs to Mexico. Trump's deal with China, although in its initial phases, would help American farmers as China promises to buy some 200 billion worth of American farmer products.

I'm only pointing this out to show that there are some Trump policies that are benefitting the working class. I'm not sure if you're under the impression that everything the Democrats do are perfect so I'll also bring up one negative area:

One place the Democrats are very weak is on immigration. Some are okay allowing illegal immigrants to stay in the US and even cross the border without penalty. I'm not in favor of separating kids from parents, but I do find a problem with letting every single immigrant into the country and then having to bear the burden of paying for their medical needs among other things. If you have this standard, any terrorist can come across the border or why not just let everybody (Asians, Africans, Arabs, etc) and all the poor people of the World come through our Southern border? We can pay for all of them, right? (… when we can't even afford to pay for own American homeless and underprivileged kids in our own country!).

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

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Post by Divine Insight »

AgnosticBoy wrote: I'm by no means trying to get anyone to vote for Trump. But what I disagree with are those who think putting in a Democrat would do much better. When you factor in the problems from BOTH (Dems. and Repubs.) sides, then perhaps you can begin to see why I can "tolerate" Trump
You might be able to tolerate Trump, but our free democracy may not withstand another four years of his total disregard for democracy.
AgnosticBoy wrote: But what I disagree with are those who think putting in a Democrat would do much better.
It would do better for our free democracy, never mind the polices. Presidents aren't dictators. Even though Trump is certainly trying his very best to be one.

We would be far better off having any president who is actually going to taken into consideration the advice of advisers and policy makers in the house and senate. Trump does none of that.

In 2016 I did not like Hilary Clinton and I was sick to my stomach that the democrats even thought that she could be a viable candidate. And this has nothing at all to do with her policies. The main thing against her was that she wasn't likely to win. The only reason she got the popular vote was because of who she was running against. Most people rather see her as president than Donald Trump, and rightfully so.

I didn't vote for Hillary in 2016 because I was among the fools who actually believed that not enough Americans could be stupid enough to vote Trump in. But obviously I was wrong about my fellow Americans.

None the less, Trump didn't "win". Instead Hillary actually "lost" simply because so may people didn't want her to be president. The democrats could have run anyone in 2016 and beat Donald Trump. Anyone other than Hillary that is. They shot themselves in the foot with that one. And there may very well have been some underhanded political garbage going on there as well, as many people believe that Sanders should have won the candidacy for present in 2016.

I'm not a Sanders fan either. To be honest I'd rather see either Buttigieg or Klobuchar become president, but I think it's highly unlikely that Americans in general are prepared to vote for a gay president to be honest. And I don't think Klobuchar is going to make it simply because she's already too far down that most people simply aren't likely to take her as a serious contender. Ironically they continue to take Biden as a serious contender even though he's behind Klobuchar.

I suspect that Bloomberg might actually end up buying his way to the top of the ticket.

In any case, this isn't really about policies. It's about retaining a free democracy. Any of the people above, are far more likely to respect and support a free democracy. And that is by-far more paramount than any policy issues.
AgnosticBoy wrote: One place the Democrats are very weak is on immigration.
I disagree. I don't think the Democrats are any weaker than the Republicans on immigration. In short, neither side has a clue how to address the immigration problem effectively.

What we need is immigration REFORM. Not immigration ABOLITION.

You don't solve problems by trying to make them just go away. That's how idiots approach problems. Not only this but the USA needs immigrants. It's good to have a constant influx of people into our nation.

What is needed is an intelligent immigration reform. An intelligent system to make immigration work for everyone involved. This is not only possible, but it's the only intelligent way to solve the problem. I have a lot of suggestions for immigration reform that would benefit everyone, both immigrants and American citizens. The problem is that I don't have the resources, energy, or the recognition to go to Washington and teach the idiots there how to wise up on immigration. I think it's a disgusting shame that the people who are already there aren't intelligent enough to solve these problems on their own.

But the fact of the matter is that neither party currently has a solution for the problem. Abolishing immigration is no solution. That's only putting a lid on a pressure cooker and refusing to turn down the heat. Trump's actions toward immigration isn't doing anyone any good. You don't just build a wall and think that's going to solve the immigration problem. Yet that's precisely the kind of idiotic behavior that we get from Trump.

So we'd be far better off electing Democrats who at least realize that the problem needs to be solved and not just plugged up with a physical wall that can never solve the underlying problems.

But again. This election in 2020 isn't about policies at all.

The real question is whether you want to restore our free democracy or whether you want to pour more fuel on demagoguery. And lose free democracy entirely.

At least any one of the Democratic candidates would restore democracy. Even Mike Bloomberg would probably work to restore and preserve a free democracy.

I don't know whether you've noticed, but Donald Trump is not well. He's not the slightest bit concerned about America, Americans, or a Free Democracy. All he's concerned with is Donald J. Trumps ego. That's ultimately all he cares about.

If you support his ego he'll reward you. Dare to offend his ego and he'll sic the DOJ on you. He doesn't care about you. Nor does he care about the water you drink or the air that you breathe. All he cares about is getting revenge against his perceived enemies and using the power of the presidency to bully people around.

Just look at how scared the Republican senators are of him. He has them under his thumb just like he has A.G. Barr doing his bidding. He's a dictator. Not a president of a free democracy.

Obama was right about Donald J. Trump. He was never fit to be president, and now we are paying the price for allowing him to take control of that position. The most powerful position on earth.

So no. Polices are meaningless as long as Trump is president.
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Post #5

Post by Gracchus »

I have been registered as a Democrat as long as I have been eligible to vote. (I am 76 years old.) But, I don't necessarily follow the "party line". I don't even always vote for someone I think can win. I vote for candidates who support policies I can approve.

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

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Post by Athetotheist »

AgnosticBoy wrote:(… when we can't even afford to pay for own American homeless and underprivileged kids in our own country!).
We could if we taxed the rich properly.

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

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Post by AgnosticBoy »

Athetotheist wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote:(… when we can't even afford to pay for own American homeless and underprivileged kids in our own country!).
We could if we taxed the rich properly.
I'd like to see an actual budget plan for that. Are any Democratic candidates even promising that they can provide everyone with housing, good education, and healthcare? There's talk about universal healthcare and that alone has come under attack UNLESS you raise taxes on the middle class, as well. Again, this is just for healthcare. What about the housing and good education for all American citizens including for Puerto Rico?? It's not just the rich that will face increased taxes!!

I can think of a dozen more things in national interest that can use more funding besides just American homelessness. All of these should be put before paying for the World's poor.

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

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Post by Athetotheist »

AgnosticBoy wrote:
Athetotheist wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote:(… when we can't even afford to pay for own American homeless and underprivileged kids in our own country!).
We could if we taxed the rich properly.
I'd like to see an actual budget plan for that. Are any Democratic candidates even promising that they can provide everyone with housing, good education, and healthcare? There's talk about universal healthcare and that alone has come under attack UNLESS you raise taxes on the middle class, as well. Again, this is just for healthcare. What about the housing and good education for all American citizens including for Puerto Rico?? It's not just the rich that will face increased taxes!!

I can think of a dozen more things in national interest that can use more funding besides just American homelessness. All of these should be put before paying for the World's poor.
Is any of that an excuse for not taxing the rich properly?

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

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Post by AgnosticBoy »

Athetotheist wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote:
Athetotheist wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote:(… when we can't even afford to pay for own American homeless and underprivileged kids in our own country!).
We could if we taxed the rich properly.
I'd like to see an actual budget plan for that. Are any Democratic candidates even promising that they can provide everyone with housing, good education, and healthcare? There's talk about universal healthcare and that alone has come under attack UNLESS you raise taxes on the middle class, as well. Again, this is just for healthcare. What about the housing and good education for all American citizens including for Puerto Rico?? It's not just the rich that will face increased taxes!!

I can think of a dozen more things in national interest that can use more funding besides just American homelessness. All of these should be put before paying for the World's poor.
Is any of that an excuse for not taxing the rich properly?
Is taxing the rich justification for open borders??

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Re: The rise of the Independents (unaffiliated voters)

Post #10

Post by Athetotheist »

AgnosticBoy wrote:
Athetotheist wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote:
Athetotheist wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote:(… when we can't even afford to pay for own American homeless and underprivileged kids in our own country!).
We could if we taxed the rich properly.
I'd like to see an actual budget plan for that. Are any Democratic candidates even promising that they can provide everyone with housing, good education, and healthcare? There's talk about universal healthcare and that alone has come under attack UNLESS you raise taxes on the middle class, as well. Again, this is just for healthcare. What about the housing and good education for all American citizens including for Puerto Rico?? It's not just the rich that will face increased taxes!!

I can think of a dozen more things in national interest that can use more funding besides just American homelessness. All of these should be put before paying for the World's poor.
Is any of that an excuse for not taxing the rich properly?
Is taxing the rich justification for open borders??
I don't know of anyone advocating wide open borders; there's always been a screening process in place. As one commentator recently observed, our immigration system needs reform----not abolition.

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