The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

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The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

As expected, the response to the protest has become political. Everyone agrees that the death of George Floyd was 'murder' and nothing less. Now we have protests, both peaceful and violent. There has been some clear differences between how Republicans and Democrats are responding.

Some liberal officials/news media/ and ordinary citizens are claiming that the people are angry and that explains and perhaps even justifies the violence. This goes with their response to go easy on enforcing the law during protest. Police in Santa Monica were seen standing around watching looters break into stores. Police in Minnesota stood around as looters burnt down a police station. This happened all under liberal controlled counties/cities.

Then on the Republican side you have a call for overwhelming security presence to crackdown on violent protests. This shows that Republicans do not see any justification for violent protest.

So the debate question:
1. Is violence ever justified (e.g. as part of protest)??
2. Who gets to decide which crime is allowed? If we allow "looting", then why not rape, murder, arson, etc? Can we trust that those with violence on their minds can make a sensible judgement on this?

koko

Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #2

Post by koko »

Normally to me, neither police nor anyone else have the right to commit random acts of violence.

In certain circumstances when the government abuses people, the victims have a right to contest those evils and even to dissolve that government. Thomas Jefferson and the Founding Fathers all said so. They believed in that right so strongly that they were willing to die for it.

The violence we see today is not the type endorsed by the Founders. They would never have supported white supremacists fomenting violence nor would they applaud government use of agent provocateurs to foment problems. And they certainly would not approve of setting business shops on fire. But they would approve of citizens rights to punish law enforcement personnel. Here is your proof:


Image



The tax collector was the goverment agent of the day. He was beaten, water tortured, tarred and feathered, and then hung. Yes I know this is rather extreme. But history proves this is what our Founders did. When they marched peacefully in Boston they were shot thereby resulting in the infamous Boston Massacre. Thereafter, the patriots armed themselves and fired back at Lexington & Concord. And just to insure that they would always have the right to use this as a last resort they enacted the 2d Amendment. Frightening as it may sound, if this unhappy event took place back in the day when an innocent man was killed by the government, the cop in question would have been lynched by now. Not preaching here - just telling you what is historically true.

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Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #3

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:56 pm Normally to me, neither police nor anyone else have the right to commit random acts of violence.

In certain circumstances when the government abuses people, the victims have a right to contest those evils and even to dissolve that government. Thomas Jefferson and the Founding Fathers all said so. They believed in that right so strongly that they were willing to die for it.

The violence we see today is not the type endorsed by the Founders. They would never have supported white supremacists fomenting violence nor would they applaud government use of agent provocateurs to foment problems. And they certainly would not approve of setting business shops on fire. But they would approve of citizens rights to punish law enforcement personnel. Here is your proof:

The tax collector was the goverment agent of the day. He was beaten, water tortured, tarred and feathered, and then hung. Yes I know this is rather extreme. But history proves this is what our Founders did. When they marched peacefully in Boston they were shot thereby resulting in the infamous Boston Massacre. Thereafter, the patriots armed themselves and fired back at Lexington & Concord. And just to insure that they would always have the right to use this as a last resort they enacted the 2d Amendment. Frightening as it may sound, if this unhappy event took place back in the day when an innocent man was killed by the government, the cop in question would have been lynched by now. Not preaching here - just telling you what is historically true.
I appreciate that historical perspective. It seems that it was more organized against a clear target and purpose, just as in cases of war. But these looters seem to be doing things indiscriminately. There's even video of looters attacking other looters, perhaps someone stole the shirt that they wanted to steal themselves? Without a clear target (are all cops racists, including the minority ones?), clear purpose, a clear leader, especially when other means can be used like VOTING, which many of these looters probably don't do, then this violence may as well be some anarchists pipe dream . Hek, even some Churches and CNN Atlanta headquarters were damaged.

I also question what right do looters have to tell others that they can't inflict violence on them. If someone is trying to rob my business, I can assure you the last thing I want to hear is that looters shouldn't be stopped with force when they are using force to commit their crimes.

koko

Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #4

Post by koko »

Two wrongs will never make a right. While the looting (much of it spurred on by agent provocateurs including undercover white supremacists) is the wrong thing to do, none of it would have occurred if the police had only obeyed the law. Police chief Arredondo called the police "complicit" in the "violation of humanity" through this act of murder.

Is there a right to violence? Generally no. But ask yourself, what would our Founding Fathers do? The historical evidence shows they resorted to violence when their grievances were not addressed. They insured that people would have the right to do the same and this is why they gave us the 2d Amendment. Perhaps now it is time for people to use this right if government does not reform itself and to stop this holocaust before it gets worse. But if they resort to it, they need to direct this counter violence to those responsible for the injustices, not towards others who are innocent bystanders.

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Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

koko wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:27 am. While the looting (much of it spurred on by agent provocateurs including undercover white supremacists) i
I challenge this statement. Where is your evidence? Besides pundits on CNN expressing opinion.

"White supremacists" while despicable, are not responsible for every evil in the world. Not this one. The people I see in the looting videos are overwhelmingly black. I would ask people on the Left who suppress this fact, is it racist to make that observation?

There is a definite problem with criminal urban black youth in this country. And it's not just this latest uprising that makes me say that. Watch the looters after a hurricane. Overwhelmingly black. There's a problem there.

The white people I see fighting the police are most likely Antifa, not white supremacists.
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Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #6

Post by koko »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:36 pm
koko wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:27 am. While the looting (much of it spurred on by agent provocateurs including undercover white supremacists) i
I challenge this statement. Where is your evidence? Besides pundits on CNN expressing opinion.

"White supremacists" while despicable, are not responsible for every evil in the world. Not this one. The people I see in the looting videos are overwhelmingly black. I would ask people on the Left who suppress this fact, is it racist to make that observation?

There is a definite problem with criminal urban black youth in this country. And it's not just this latest uprising that makes me say that. Watch the looters after a hurricane. Overwhelmingly black. There's a problem there.

The white people I see fighting the police are most likely Antifa, not white supremacists.


I have previously presented evidence of my claim as well as links to reports that we have not had Antifa activity. The right wing continues to make the claim Antifa (as well as George Soros) has been active in all this but they have not presented any evidence of their claim.

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Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #7

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:27 am Two wrongs will never make a right. While the looting (much of it spurred on by agent provocateurs including undercover white supremacists) is the wrong thing to do, none of it would have occurred if the police had only obeyed the law. Police chief Arredondo called the police "complicit" in the "violation of humanity" through this act of murder.
You kinda going against your own point by bringing up White supremacists. The violence is not caused by George Floyd's murder because there are many protestors, including George Floyd's family who did not resort to violence nor advocate for it. As you rightly said, it is groups with agendas other than George Floyd, like White supremacists and Antifa, who looted or incited riots for their own reasons. Perhaps to bring down all government and not just police departments. Many liberals are too naïve to make the distinction between people looting for different reasons, including for their own personal gain.
koko wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:27 amIs there a right to violence? Generally no. But ask yourself, what would our Founding Fathers do? The historical evidence shows they resorted to violence when their grievances were not addressed. They insured that people would have the right to do the same and this is why they gave us the 2d Amendment. Perhaps now it is time for people to use this right if government does not reform itself and to stop this holocaust before it gets worse. But if they resort to it, they need to direct this counter violence to those responsible for the injustices, not towards others who are innocent bystanders.
I agree with most of what you've said here. One problem we have is that people don't acknowledge that there are good cops and even miniority cops. To lump in all cops as being the same is faulty thinking.

koko

Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #8

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:01 pm
You kinda going against your own point by bringing up White supremacists.
I have posted numerous links which prove white supremacists involvement. Here is one previously shown:

https://www.justsecurity.org/70497/far- ... remacists/

Here in Minnesota which is the nation's epicenter of this violence, this is what we believe based on all the evidence that exists. This may not be what Fox reports or wants you to believe but this is more credible than anything you've seen on tv. You will need to suspend your sense of disbelief if you want more proof.

I agree with most of what you've said here. One problem we have is that people don't acknowledge that there are good cops and even miniority cops. To lump in all cops as being the same is faulty thinking.
In a blatant act of police terrorism, a helpless old man is beaten down by cops with 2 of them getting suspended for this crime. What do the cops do? Instead of uphold the law, they resign in protest even though there is a prima facie case of police brutality.

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Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #9

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:44 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:01 pm
You kinda going against your own point by bringing up White supremacists.
I have posted numerous links which prove white supremacists involvement. Here is one previously shown:

https://www.justsecurity.org/70497/far- ... remacists/

Here in Minnesota which is the nation's epicenter of this violence, this is what we believe based on all the evidence that exists. This may not be what Fox reports or wants you to believe but this is more credible than anything you've seen on tv. You will need to suspend your sense of disbelief if you want more proof.
I'm not disputing that White supremacists are involved. I'm disputing the CAUSE of the looting. Some say the cause is because protestors are angry with George Floyd's death. Others, like YOU, say it is caused by White Supremacists inciting violence and looting. That is two different causes and agendas. Clearly the White Supremacists aren't going to be doing things because they care about George Floyd's death. Perhaps that's why we see even Black owned businesses being destroyed. If it was just about justice for Black people, then why are Black people being targeted in the protests?

koko

Re: The Right to violence: In response to George Floyd murder

Post #10

Post by koko »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:19 pm
I'm not disputing that White supremacists are involved. I'm disputing the CAUSE of the looting. Some say the cause is because protestors are angry with George Floyd's death. Others, like YOU, say it is caused by White Supremacists inciting violence and looting. That is two different causes and agendas. Clearly the White Supremacists aren't going to be doing things because they care about George Floyd's death.

Exactly. They are subversives who are spreading chaos, dissent, racial division, and other troubles. Precisely what I've said all along. And while some are continually attribute all the chaos they create to Antifa without presenting any evidence to support that claim, it properly belongs to those hate filled anti America white supremacists.

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