Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Two hot topics for the price of one

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Paul of Tarsus
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Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #1

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

As we should know, the US Capitol Building has been attacked by alleged Trump supporters. Our sitting president, an avowed Christian, allegedly encouraged the attack. Some world leaders have spoken in public about the rioters. For example, Iranian president Hassan Rouhani says western democracy is brittle and weak.

I agree! One fact about this whole affair is that all of it came about within American-style democracy. Trump was voted into office, voted out of office, and the result is chaos. In our democracy we have people hating other people and committing acts of violence as a result of elections. Our democratic ideals have badly divided us.

Is any of this mayhem good, or do we need to revamp our government?

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:05 pm As we should know, the US Capitol Building has been attacked by alleged Trump supporters. Our sitting president, an avowed Christian, allegedly encouraged the attack. Some world leaders have spoken in public about the rioters. For example, Iranian president Hassan Rouhani says western democracy is brittle and weak.

I agree! One fact about this whole affair is that all of it came about within American-style democracy. Trump was voted into office, voted out of office, and the result is chaos. In our democracy we have people hating other people and committing acts of violence as a result of elections. Our democratic ideals have badly divided us.

Is any of this mayhem good, or do we need to revamp our government?
I've been saying a revamp of the gov't has been in order for quite some time. Maybe the country needs to break up in to smaller 'countries' to better handle their respective population's issues? I don't know I'm not a political major obviously but what I do know is that politicians are so out of step with the majority of the population it's frightening. That, and the American public is highly uneducated; more concerned with Kim and Kayne's separation than what their elected officials are doing.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #3

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:05 pm As we should know, the US Capitol Building has been attacked by alleged Trump supporters. Our sitting president, an avowed Christian, allegedly encouraged the attack. Some world leaders have spoken in public about the rioters. For example, Iranian president Hassan Rouhani says western democracy is brittle and weak.

I agree! One fact about this whole affair is that all of it came about within American-style democracy. Trump was voted into office, voted out of office, and the result is chaos. In our democracy we have people hating other people and committing acts of violence as a result of elections. Our democratic ideals have badly divided us.

Is any of this mayhem good, or do we need to revamp our government?
The United States is a Democratic Republic. The power lies with the people, but then the people elect someone (congress and senate) to represent them and these representatives are supposed to make decisions that are in the interest of the people. From there, it's up to the people to fill in the details with the laws and morals that they will operate under.

The way I see it is that for any Democratic country to thrive, the forces or ideals that unite them must be strong enough to withstand the forces that can divide them. What unites Americans is freedom, a government chosen by the people. Anyone of any political persuasion in the US would probably agree to this. The problem is that it may not be enough to cover or guide us through what can divide us which are the differences of opinion that will inevitably occur, even between just two people. These differences of opinion can be on morality, social issues, economic policies, immigration, etc. Politicians exploit these differences in order to stay in power and to profit from it. That's a huge problem. We have got to find some way to not politicize our differences while also increasing focus on our common values.
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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #4

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:22 pmI've been saying a revamp of the gov't has been in order for quite some time. Maybe the country needs to break up in to smaller 'countries' to better handle their respective population's issues?
While I agree there's some utility for our nation to focus more on regional issues--volcanic eruptions in Hawaii, blizzards in Pennsylvania--the recent violence in DC seems to have originated from the country in a very broad sense. It seems like the whole country is divided, and much of that division is over blaming others for the nation's woes.
I don't know I'm not a political major obviously but what I do know is that politicians are so out of step with the majority of the population it's frightening.
I've personally met with politicians. You are correct. They are not truly representing the people they claim to serve. They probably know from the outset that they cannot please everybody, but they try to make it look that way.
That, and the American public is highly uneducated; more concerned with Kim and Kayne's separation than what their elected officials are doing.
Education is definitely a problem in the USA. I find "climate-change denial" very troubling. What really hits home for me, though, are the attacks on services for the elderly and the poor. Some politicians have created a bug-a-boo they call socialism to frighten the very people that government services are meant to help.

In any event, I can't say I'm too impressed with democracy especially when voting and elections result in hatred and violence. We really need to think about the very philosophical basis for our government. Changes may be in order.

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #5

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:47 pm The United States is a Democratic Republic. The power lies with the people, but then the people elect someone (congress and senate) to represent them and these representatives are supposed to make decisions that are in the interest of the people. From there, it's up to the people to fill in the details with the laws and morals that they will operate under.
I wonder if our claim to be a "democratic republic" is any more sincere than calling a country "The People's Republic of China." It seems to me that in America power doesn't come from one's vote but from one's dollar. Seeing the US that way, it is not a true democracy but a plutocracy ruled by the wealthy. Our sitting president is a billionaire. I don't think it's a coincidence that he is.

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #6

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:34 pm In any event, I can't say I'm too impressed with democracy especially when voting and elections result in hatred and violence. We really need to think about the very philosophical basis for our government. Changes may be in order.
I saw that you brought up the Christian faith in the title. Many believe that the US was started based on Judeo-Christian principles. A shared religion was what many Americans had in common, moreso in the past than now. I'm not sure if that was part of your bringing it up in the title.

Also, I don't believe that only a philosophical examination will resolve things. I also think our problem needs to be examined from a psychological standpoint, as well. I say this because any philosophy can be corrupted which is why we find Christians acting in ways not advocated by Jesus. Psychological influences, such as greed for money and power, play a big role.

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:05 pm As we should know, the US Capitol Building has been attacked by alleged Trump supporters. Our sitting president, an avowed Christian, allegedly encouraged the attack. Some world leaders have spoken in public about the rioters. For example, Iranian president Hassan Rouhani says western democracy is brittle and weak.

I agree! One fact about this whole affair is that all of it came about within American-style democracy. Trump was voted into office, voted out of office, and the result is chaos. In our democracy we have people hating other people and committing acts of violence as a result of elections. Our democratic ideals have badly divided us.

Is any of this mayhem good, or do we need to revamp our government?
I wouldn't think revamping government would help. Government is best viewed as a gun. The next thing to notice is who is holding the gun and which way it is pointing.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #8

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:56 pm I saw that you brought up the Christian faith in the title.


I mentioned Trump's Christian faith because this is a forum to debate Christianity, and I needed a topic related to the Christian religion.
Many believe that the US was started based on Judeo-Christian principles.
Translation: My brand of Protestantism.
A shared religion was what many Americans had in common, moreso in the past than now. I'm not sure if that was part of your bringing it up in the title.
I was hoping that some of the apologists here might make a case for a "true" or "genuine" democracy based on their Christian beliefs. In other words, they might tell us how to fix or restore our democracy.
Also, I don't believe that only a philosophical examination will resolve things.
Yes, of course, but scrutinizing democracy is the place to start. Democracy's flaws have become way too evident to ignore (at least for me).
I also think our problem needs to be examined from a psychological standpoint, as well. I say this because any philosophy can be corrupted which is why we find Christians acting in ways not advocated by Jesus. Psychological influences, such as greed for money and power, play a big role.
I agree that anything including a religion or political system can become corrupted, but we should take care not to dismiss evidence that a political system is bad by concluding that any harm from that system results from a corruption of that system. It's possible that the harm is indeed rooted in the system. So in the case of democracy, what we have seen recently in DC might be the gorilla in the room that we don't want to see.

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #9

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Wootah wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:53 pmI wouldn't think revamping government would help.
Did the American Revolution help the colonies? Many of the colonists seemed to think so.
Government is best viewed as a gun. The next thing to notice is who is holding the gun and which way it is pointing.
I agree with you here to some extent. Our government has guns and may use them on us if it thinks it is necessary to do so. However, in general we live in peace with the government and reap the benefits.

Anyway, I'm still looking for some input about whether or not democracy is a good form of government. Is voting good for the country, for example, or is voting just a farce that makes as about as much difference as buying a lottery ticket? In the last presidential election voters turned out in record numbers. In what way did we benefit?

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Re: Democracy, Trump, and Christian Faith

Post #10

Post by Athetotheist »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:16 pmI'm still looking for some input about whether or not democracy is a good form of government.
It has to be a constitutional democracy which recognizes the rights of minorities in theory and in practice.
Paul of Tarsus wrote:Is voting good for the country, for example, or is voting just a farce that makes as about as much difference as buying a lottery ticket?
For voting to really mean something, one thing we have to do is abolish the nonsensical Electoral College. Those who run for president of the "United" States should have to win a majority of votes throughout ALL the states, not just the separate majorities of a few.

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