Application for a Nobel Prize?

[Divine Insight]

Where do I apply for a Nobel Prize?

I just discovered a proof of why no eternal intelligent God can exist.

The proof is actually so simple it's hard to believe that no one saw before me.

Here it is:

Intelligence cannot exist without reliance upon the second law of thermodynamics. Especially if we are defining intelligence as dynamic conscious thought that is capable of memory and making logically reasoned decisions. The ability to do this requires the second law of thermodynamics in order to perform the necessary functions.

Yet if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules. Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal. Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

This proof already exists in known physics. Nothing new needed to be added.

So this is a universal truth I 'discovered' and not something I 'invented'.

Where do I apply for my Nobel Prize?

[bluethread]

The problem is that one is talking about the infinite(I) and whatever is lost due to entropy(E) would be insignificant, because the infinite would still be infinite.

I - E = I'

I' may not include as much as I, but infinity need not be all inclusive. It simply needs to be beyond number. Also, if that law were an eternal law, how did the universe form? If there is a finite amount of matter, it must have been optimally complex at some point. If so, what was it shortly before that. If it was the same, the law did not apply. If it was more complex, we were mistaken in identifying the point of optimum complexity. So, at the point of optimum complexity the law does not apply. Therefore, entropy does not necessarily apply to the all knowing. In order to prove that entropy applies to a given infinite, it must be shown how and when the infinite first digressed.

[Swami]

Where do I apply for a Nobel Prize?

I just discovered a proof of why no eternal intelligent God can exist.

The proof is actually so simple it's hard to believe that no one saw before me.

Here it is:

Intelligence cannot exist without reliance upon the second law of thermodynamics. Especially if we are defining intelligence as dynamic conscious thought that is capable of memory and making logically reasoned decisions. The ability to do this requires the second law of thermodynamics in order to perform the necessary functions.

Yet if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules. Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal. Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

This proof already exists in known physics. Nothing new needed to be added.

So this is a universal truth I 'discovered' and not something I 'invented'.

Where do I apply for my Nobel Prize?

Entropy applies to closed systems. It occurs in time. God exists outside of time. If God is and knows everything then there's no need it to have intelligence. We can say that God is not a physical system but I'm not sure of how or why you' would restrict it to a closed system as opposed to an open one. Perhaps it can exist in either system? In open systems, there can be negative entropy which refers to something becoming more orderly which I believe is how human intelligence is evolving. The evolution of life is another good example.


It would also help if you would define intelligence and explain how it applies to entropy.

[William]

[Replying to post 9 by Divine Insight]

Clearly you do not understand the concept of entropy.

Well I did get the definition from wiki, so....

Show me which variable in the following equation refers to anything physical:

S = k log W

The equation itself is physical DI.

But when I say Boltzman's S = k log W equation I objected it because this equation can clearly be applied to totally abstract non-physical and purely mathematical systems. Like the organization of pure information.

Pure information, as in 'one true Scotsman'?

I objected to this because it truly blew my mind that something so abstract could be true about the physical world.

Are you saying that this equation is abstract? Or that the physical world is not?

I later realized that the reason this is true is because it's actually impossible for information to exist outside of a physical world. Information only make sense when some "thing" is "in-formation". And a physical world is required for this to occur.

Most NDEs are recounted using the greater percentage of metaphor. This is not because those experiencing the non-physical worlds don't completely understand what they experience as it happened, because they do. Rather it is because both the human body/physical universe and human language act as limiters. Language generally is the purveyor of limitation. So when they return to their bodies, the lack words to express the information in a way which conveys the clarity of the experience to others who have not had the experience.

There are literally thousands of OOBE/NDE related units of information available on the internet. You yourself claim to have experienced both, but from what you say above, you obviously believe that they are simply your creator-brain giving 'you' an unreal experience...either that or the experience wasn't information which made any sense to you. You can explain to the reader which one of those two it is.

None the less, this doesn't change the fact that those who prefer to pretend that information could make sense outside of a physical world...

Thousands and thousands of individual 'pretenders' and only one sincerely 'nice guy' being 'truthful'.
The information from alternate experiences has a profound effect on the individual who experiences these and understand them as something other than 'imagination' or 'creations of the brain.' So yes, it does indeed help them to make sense of their place in this world, often answering the 'why' adequately.

Group Features of NDEs

1: Changes in thinking and thought processes
Sense of time distorts or is missing entirely.
Thinking is faster and often clearer than ever before.
Life review with panoramic memory
Sudden understanding and revelation.

2: Changes in emotions feelings
Sense of peace and well-being
Feelings of Joy
A sense of cosmic unity and oneness with everything
Encounter with bright light being who is characterized as unconditional love

3: (so-called) paranormal feature of experiences.
Extraordinary sensory vividness
Frank extrasensory perception
Visions of the future
A sense of leaving the physical body


4: Otherworldly features
Finding oneself in a mystical unearthly realm of existence
Encountering mystic beings or presense
Seeing deceased spirits or religious spirits
Coming to a boarder which you cannot go past if you are to survive and have to return to your body.

Most NDEs have some of all of these features in them.

[Above quotes from the video]
[yt]kRmTYHcBXsk[/yt]

...entropy would then necessarily still apply.

So you can't escape entropy be claiming that entropy only applies to a physical world.

Did you skip over that part of my last post which spoke to the Astral Realm and how aspects of that are in decay, if not gone altogether?

Then one can also argue 'what is physical' because the AR is experienced in a similar manner to how the physical universe is experienced in relation to apparent physical objects of FORM. Indeed, the formation of objects can be instantaneous, but even so, the process is in-formation.

I even speak to this idea of in-formation in my Members Notes...such as; Light is In Formation

Your argument fails because you are suggesting that Consciousness cannot exist or function intelligently without information. Consciousness is able to reference itself intelligently as information, if it were ever in the position to not be experiencing any thing. [Consciousness not defined as a 'thing']

If you're going to claim that there exists information outside of the physical world, then you have no choice but to take Entropy with you.

Entropy is not something one takes anywhere. It is simply the transforming of information from one state to another.

Even a vast field of quantum potential in its inert state, undisturbed by an observer, is information to that observer. [Assuming the potential isn't disturbed consciousness simply observing it.]

Entropy is not restricted to a physical world. At least not if you claim that numbers, mathematics, or any form of information could exist in a non-physical world.

Numbers are logically not necessary in an eternal infinite world. Information would come through the consciousnesses experiencing said world.

You're going to be stuck with entropy no matter how purely philosophical you try to get.

I seriously am thinking you did not actually read my last post in any detail DI.

Consciousness is that which is REAL . Things are what react to entropy and become - not nothing - or 'non things' - but transform from one state to another. In this, they are not 'real' but consciousness still experiences these as 'realities', much the same way as one would in a full- immersion simulated reality, only without the realization that this is what you are experiencing. The realization in our case as experiencing this universe as we are, comes to the individual through the experience itself, once one starts knowing what to look for and doesn't fob it all off as 'the brain did it'.

Consciousness as First Source undivided does not transform from one state to another. Consciousness within the experience of things can have the appearance of transforming, in relation to the state it is experiencing as real/reality.

The data of experience the individuate consciousness has, can - does and will - allow for that consciousness to think of itself as something it is actually not - so a type of transformation from its original state to its experience state(s) is possible, but that is never permanent as, entropy does its job.

Eventually entropy will eat through all the various layers of mis-information wrought through experiencing these different universes and allow that consciousness to reconnect with its Source, while retaining the information they each, as individuate consciousnesses, experience.

Clearly you do not understand the concept of entropy.

When does entropy stop happening in the universe?

When everything returns to its original state?

What is its original state?

Consciousness experiences itself experiencing things. Entropy is a process to do with things.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by Razorsedge]

God exists outside of time.

You are speaking to what I referred to as 'First Source Wholeness Perspective'

There is no place where GOD does not exist. We are aspects of GOD experiencing time and space, and will each return to timelessness.

[Divine Insight]

In open systems, there can be negative entropy which refers to something becoming more orderly which I believe is how human intelligence is evolving.

Keep in mind that in the context of entropy an "open" system simply means a system which is obtaining new energy from an outside source. If there is no new energy coming into the system, then in what sense would it be "open".

This has nothing to do with finite versus infinite. It entirely has to do with whether or not the total energy of the system is open or closed.

In other words, if a "God" is an open system in terms of entropy, this would mean that God must be obtaining energy from a source outside of itself. And that would be problematic for a concept of a God that is supposed to be the source of everything.

It would also help if you would define intelligence and explain how it applies to entropy.

Well, I'm certainly not going to give a college level course on Entropy here. There are many books and courses that can be read or taken to obtain that information.

But I will be the first to agree that the very concept of "intelligence" is a highly subjective human term.

In fact, I would say that from a purely technical or mathematical perspective intelligence would have nothing to do with being "smart" in our conventional intuitive meaning of "smart". In other words, even a system that is making the stupidest possible decisions would still be "intelligent" if it is actually performing logical operations to make those "stupid" decisions. In fact, in this context judgements like "smart or stupid" are nothing more than subjective opinions. Although they could be quantified to some degree if we take into consideration intended goals and talk about how efficiently the intended goal has been reached.

I also agree, that the terms 'intelligence' is ill-defined in theological circles.

For example, if we allow that quantum fields exist and simply exhibit a consistent behavior that can be written down as predicable "laws", that property alone could be said to be a sign of "intelligence", even though the quantum fields would not be conscious, sentient, or have any ability to actually make decisions.

So I will grant that there's a lot of semantic wiggle room here for theists to claim that something like quantum fields represent a state of "intelligence".

The only problem with those kind of argument is that this leads to a "God" that hasn't anymore intelligence than a rock. Not only this, but since a rock also has consistent properties this would then lead to the necessary conclusion that rocks are intelligent as well.

So once we go down the path of making these kinds of semantic arguments it's really kind of like Alice going down the rabbit hole. Just about anything goes after that.

~~~~~

The major thrust of my "proof" is that anything that has memory would necessarily need to have entropy, and behave as entropy dictates. Therefore if a God is said to be able to remember anything, then God needs to have a changing entropy. And so far that's fine.

But then if we want to claim that this God can also exist eternally that's where the problem come in. It can't be both. It can either have the ability to remember things, or it can have the ability to exist eternity, but it can't have both.

Keep in mind what I'm claiming in the OP:

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

I'm not saying that an intelligent conscious God cannot exist.

Nor am I saying that an eternal God cannot exist.

I'm simply saying that entropy proves that no God can be both of these things simultaneously.

So any theology that claims to have a God that is both eternal, and "intelligent" (i.e. can remember things and perform logical processing on that data), is necessarily a false theology.

If we can't to call Quantum Fields "God" and not require that they have anymore intelligence than a Rock, then we can indeed claim that this particular God can indeed be eternal. But this God could not be interacting with humans, speaking from the clouds, or intentionally making a baby in the womb of a human woman.

All of this would require that God is more intelligent than a rock.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 11 by Razorsedge]

God exists outside of time.

You are speaking to what I referred to as 'First Source Wholeness Perspective'

There is no place where GOD does not exist. We are aspects of GOD experiencing time and space, and will each return to timelessness.

But this is really nothing more than confirming what I'm saying.

Theists need for God to exist "outside" of entropic time. This is what they actually mean. Their God would need to violate entropy in order to exist.

And that's fine and dandy. But what they fail to realize is that as soon as they take entropy out of the realm of time in which their God exists, their God can no longer be an intelligent conscious entity that makes plans or is capable of processing intelligent thought, or even remember anything.

The moment it can do any of those things requires entropy, which means that it must exist in entropic time (i.e. a time that flows from past to future and eventually runs down)

So the very moment that a theist decrees that their God exists "outside of time" they are actually declaring that God cannot have any entropy change. And this means that God cannot remember anything, or act on any information in any intelligible way.

In short, the moment a theist decrees that their God exists "Outside of Time" they have instantly placed it in a state where it can no longer have the same kind of intelligent consciousness that we humans experience.

This kind of philosophy is more based on animism than theism.

We could say that Quantum Fields are indeed "animated". But most theists reject animism. They want a "Personal God" that is extremely anthropomorphic.

In fact, they usually claim that man is created in the "Image of God".

[William]

[Replying to post 15 by Divine Insight]

There is no place where GOD does not exist. We are aspects of GOD experiencing time and space, and will each return to timelessness.

But this is really nothing more than confirming what I'm saying.

Theists need for God to exist "outside" of entropic time.

That is not what you are saying. Theists 'needs' about GOD are not here nor there as your argument is specific to the belief that you have worked it all out because 'entropy'.

What I said in the quote above speaks to GOD existing in all that is, be that times and spaces or timelessness.

But what they fail to realize is that as soon as they take entropy out of the realm of time in which their God exists, their God can no longer be an intelligent conscious entity that makes plans or is capable of processing intelligent thought, or even remember anything.

You haven't even begun to explain what you mean by this anyway DI, so have established nothing more than a fuzzy claim at best.

Meantime I have provided samples to do with NDEs wherein people have experienced timelessness and while doing so have processed their intelligent thoughts while in that state.
You should maybe emerge yourself in the ample stories on the internet to do with this particular aspect of NDEs, if for no other reason than to see how seriously difficult it would be for you to convince such people that you have busted the 'myth of GOD' wide apart.

So the very moment that a theist decrees that their God exists "outside of time" they are actually declaring that God cannot have any entropy change. And this means that God cannot remember anything, or act on any information in any intelligible way.

Even supposing this is true DI - as a theist myself, my quote above clearly makes that possible as GOD is not just in a state of timelessness where entropy does not exist but is interconnected to all entropic universes, so that ought cancel out your proclamation anyway.

But certainly you will have to expand on your claim by way of explanation so that the layperson can easily enough grasp it.

As to the rest of your post, it has no bearing on my particular understanding of 'what GOD is'...perhaps it is the case entirely, re the OP subject.

But anyway, I am interested, so will continue the interaction.

[Divine Insight]

Meantime I have provided samples to do with NDEs wherein people have experienced timelessness and while doing so have processed their intelligent thoughts while in that state.
You should maybe emerge yourself in the ample stories on the internet to do with this particular aspect of NDEs, if for no other reason than to see how seriously difficult it would be for you to convince such people that you have busted the 'myth of GOD' wide apart.

I wouldn't need to worry about convincing these people of anything. If they were having an experience then they couldn't have been in a state of timelessness. And this is especially true if they remembered having had this experience.

All this amounts to is an ignorance of what entropy actually describes.

You can't have past and future in a non-entropy state. And especially not an ability to remember the past.

Our ability to remember the the past and not yet know the future is what enables our experience of time and the "arrow of time" from past to future.

If people who claim to have NDE's are experiencing events that unfold over time and can be remembered, then it's silly for them to speak of this in terms of timelessness.

Basically all you are doing is arguing that people who don't know any better can convince themselves of the most outrageous ideas that could never actually occur.

The fact that NDE's unfold in the normal way of past events and future events and an ability to remember them only demonstrates that what they are actually doing is having a dream.

NDE's are not proof of anything other than humans have an ability to dream and imagine things. But we already know this. So there's nothing new there.

[William]

[Replying to post 17 by Divine Insight]

All this amounts to is an ignorance of what entropy actually describes.

Perhaps that is true. Perhaps it is not. There is no way for me to determine the case one way or the other, in relation to your OP claim. Ideally if you want anyone to understand what you are trying to convey, the onus is on you to do so in a manner in which the layperson can understand.

If people who claim to have NDE's are experiencing events that unfold over time and can be remembered, then it's silly for them to speak of this in terms of timelessness.

Like I said. You will have to do a deep research re the information people bring back related to what they describe as being in a timeless state.

It may be YOU who have the wrong idea of what is meant by that.

Certainly your comment above - when aligned with what I have listened to re peoples NDEs - shows you are ignorant of and assuming something other than...

My interest in your claim is waning...

[Guy Threepwood]

Where do I apply for a Nobel Prize?

I just discovered a proof of why no eternal intelligent God can exist.

The proof is actually so simple it's hard to believe that no one saw before me.

Here it is:

Intelligence cannot exist without reliance upon the second law of thermodynamics. Especially if we are defining intelligence as dynamic conscious thought that is capable of memory and making logically reasoned decisions. The ability to do this requires the second law of thermodynamics in order to perform the necessary functions.

Yet if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules. Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal. Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

This proof already exists in known physics. Nothing new needed to be added.

So this is a universal truth I 'discovered' and not something I 'invented'.

Where do I apply for my Nobel Prize?

Id' say you inadvertently proved God:

Because creative intelligence is the only phenomena we know of, which can transcend entropy, create new systems, achieve what nature alone never can

Your paradox applies to non intelligent mechanisms, restrained by the entropy of pre-existing systems, cause and effect, with no creative mechanism. They are impossible as ultimate explanations for anything by this rationale yes..