Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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George00
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Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #1

Post by George00 »

One of the most common arguments I see presented by supporters of evolution is that human and chimp DNA is around 98% similar. Their similarity is said to be strong evidence in support of common ancestry. And to be fair, the similarity between the two "species" seemed to be well supported by the evidence.

Now, to the point of the thread. The following recently conducted research seems to suggest that humans aren't as genetically similar to each other as previously thought.
Genetic Variation: We're More Different Than We Thought

New research shows that at least 10 percent of genes in the human population can vary in the number of copies of DNA sequences they contain--a finding that alters current thinking that the DNA of any two humans is 99.9 percent similar in content and identity.

In the freely available Database of Genomic Variants, each bar represents a chromosome in the human genome. Blue shows the genomic distribution of copy number variations on each chromosome. Green marks the location of all annotated duplications, and red represents inversions and inversion breakpoints. (Image Credit: Junjun Zhang)


This discovery of the extent of genetic variation, by Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) international research scholar Stephen W. Scherer, and colleagues, is expected to change the way researchers think about genetic diseases and human evolution.

Genes usually occur in two copies, one inherited from each parent. Scherer and colleagues found approximately 2,900 genes--more than 10 percent of the genes in the human genome--with variations in the number of copies of specific DNA segments. These differences in copy number can influence gene activity and ultimately an organism's function.

To get a better picture of exactly how important this type of variation is for human evolution and disease, Scherer's team compared DNA from 270 people with Asian, African, or European ancestry that had been compiled in the HapMap collection and previously used to map the single nucleotide changes in the human genome. Scherer's team mapped the number of duplicated or deleted genes, which they call copy number variations (CNVs). They reported their findings in the November 23, 2006, issue of the journal Nature.

Scherer, a geneticist at the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, and colleagues searched for CNVs using microarray-based genome scanning techniques capable of finding changes at least 1,000 bases (nucleotides) long. A base, or nucleotide, is the fundamental building block of DNA. They found an average of 70 CNVs averaging 250,000 nucleotides in size in each DNA sample. In all, the group identified 1,447 different CNVs that collectively covered about 12 percent of the human genome and six to 19 percent of any given chromosome--far more widespread than previously thought.

Not only were the changes common, they also were large. "We'd find missing pieces of DNA, some a million or so nucleotides long," Scherer said. "We used to think that if you had big changes like this, then they must be involved in disease. But we are showing that we can all have these changes."

The group found nearly 16 percent of known disease-related genes in the CNVs, including genes involved in rare genetic disorders such as DiGeorge, Angelman, Williams-Beuren, and Prader-Willi syndromes, as well as those linked with schizophrenia, cataracts, spinal muscular atrophy, and atherosclerosis.

In related research published November 23, 2006, in an advance online publication in Nature Genetics, Scherer and colleagues also compared the two human genome maps--one assembled by Celera Genomics, Inc., and one from the public Human Genome Project. They found thousands of differences.

"Other people have [compared the two human genome sequences]," Scherer said, "but they found so many differences that they mostly attributed the results to error. They couldn't believe the alterations they found might be variants between the sources of DNA being analyzed."

A lot of the differences are indeed real, and they raise a red flag, he said.

Personalized genome sequencing--for individualized diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease--is not far off, Scherer pointed out. "The idea [behind comparing the human genome sequences] was to come up with a good understanding of what we're going to get when we do [personalized sequencing]," he explained. "This paper helps us think about how complex it will be."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115741.htm


So my question is....

If human beings are less genetically similar to each other than previously thought, does this imply that scientists might have been wrong in thinking humans and chimps are 98% similar?



PS- Yes, I realize the article I posted is far from the final word on the matter. I also realize that the point I am making is far from what would be required to falsify evolution or common ancestry. Nonetheless, I thought it would be an interesting subject for discussion here.

AB

Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #11

Post by AB »

QED wrote:
AB wrote:There is evidence that we were created by God and not a split off of something else.
Please state what this evidence is so we can examine it.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
-Genesis 1:27 (NIV)

AB

Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #12

Post by AB »

goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Debating aside, yes the scientists of evolution are chasing an illusion. Stand back and look at the evidence, there is much more proof of us being human and not having a great grandmonkey.
Your second sentence is correct, we are human, there has never been any disagreement to this point that I am aware of. Also true is that we don't have a great grandmonkey. Both species have a progenitor species from which we and the monkeys(and all other hominids for that matter) branched from.

To be realistic one should look at the evidence, like the genetic evidence being used in this discussion. The only real way to get out of this is to claim humans are not animals, which of course opens up a whole can of worms.
Then why do we even have the story of Adam and Eve? The fact it is relevant gives credence to God creating us. There is evidence that we were created by God and not a split off of something else.
Adam and eve is an allegory, rewritten by bronze age nomads from an even earlier religion. It is not science. Besides, if you read the hebrew, Adam (mankind) was fashioned from edamah (red clay).. the word (edamah is a related word to 'blood'). So God fashioned Mankind from flesh and blood.

If God is so powerful he can make the sun stand still, he certainly can use make a man out of a monkey.
But! What if the account was written as is!?? Wow! Fact is, there is a narrative in place that indicates God created us as humans. I call this evidence.
Wow, it is a fact that there is a narrative that Harry Potter uses a pheonix feather in his wand. That is what I call evidence of a pheonix.
Well, the Adam and Eve story has been valid as non-fiction for 4,000 plus years. Lets see how harry potter stacks up.

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Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #13

Post by Goat »

AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Debating aside, yes the scientists of evolution are chasing an illusion. Stand back and look at the evidence, there is much more proof of us being human and not having a great grandmonkey.
Your second sentence is correct, we are human, there has never been any disagreement to this point that I am aware of. Also true is that we don't have a great grandmonkey. Both species have a progenitor species from which we and the monkeys(and all other hominids for that matter) branched from.

To be realistic one should look at the evidence, like the genetic evidence being used in this discussion. The only real way to get out of this is to claim humans are not animals, which of course opens up a whole can of worms.
Then why do we even have the story of Adam and Eve? The fact it is relevant gives credence to God creating us. There is evidence that we were created by God and not a split off of something else.
Adam and eve is an allegory, rewritten by bronze age nomads from an even earlier religion. It is not science. Besides, if you read the hebrew, Adam (mankind) was fashioned from edamah (red clay).. the word (edamah is a related word to 'blood'). So God fashioned Mankind from flesh and blood.

If God is so powerful he can make the sun stand still, he certainly can use make a man out of a monkey.
But! What if the account was written as is!?? Wow! Fact is, there is a narrative in place that indicates God created us as humans. I call this evidence.
Wow, it is a fact that there is a narrative that Harry Potter uses a pheonix feather in his wand. That is what I call evidence of a pheonix.
Well, the Adam and Eve story has been valid as non-fiction for 4,000 plus years. Lets see how harry potter stacks up.
Sigh,,,.. an allegory is just an allegory. You can proclaim it to be the literal truth all you want, it doesn't make it so.

It doesn't matter how long or how many people accepted it as literal truth. We know it isn't now... well most of us.

AB

Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #14

Post by AB »

goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Debating aside, yes the scientists of evolution are chasing an illusion. Stand back and look at the evidence, there is much more proof of us being human and not having a great grandmonkey.
Your second sentence is correct, we are human, there has never been any disagreement to this point that I am aware of. Also true is that we don't have a great grandmonkey. Both species have a progenitor species from which we and the monkeys(and all other hominids for that matter) branched from.

To be realistic one should look at the evidence, like the genetic evidence being used in this discussion. The only real way to get out of this is to claim humans are not animals, which of course opens up a whole can of worms.
Then why do we even have the story of Adam and Eve? The fact it is relevant gives credence to God creating us. There is evidence that we were created by God and not a split off of something else.
Adam and eve is an allegory, rewritten by bronze age nomads from an even earlier religion. It is not science. Besides, if you read the hebrew, Adam (mankind) was fashioned from edamah (red clay).. the word (edamah is a related word to 'blood'). So God fashioned Mankind from flesh and blood.

If God is so powerful he can make the sun stand still, he certainly can use make a man out of a monkey.
But! What if the account was written as is!?? Wow! Fact is, there is a narrative in place that indicates God created us as humans. I call this evidence.
Wow, it is a fact that there is a narrative that Harry Potter uses a pheonix feather in his wand. That is what I call evidence of a pheonix.
Well, the Adam and Eve story has been valid as non-fiction for 4,000 plus years. Lets see how harry potter stacks up.
Sigh,,,.. an allegory is just an allegory. You can proclaim it to be the literal truth all you want, it doesn't make it so.

It doesn't matter how long or how many people accepted it as literal truth. We know it isn't now... well most of us.
Wrong. In this.. Sigh.. forum.. how long and how many people accepted does have merit. It is evidence that the Adam and Eve were created by God. It is not an allegory. So, please don't assign the laws of allegory to Adam and Eve. Sigh.

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Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #15

Post by Goat »

AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Debating aside, yes the scientists of evolution are chasing an illusion. Stand back and look at the evidence, there is much more proof of us being human and not having a great grandmonkey.
Your second sentence is correct, we are human, there has never been any disagreement to this point that I am aware of. Also true is that we don't have a great grandmonkey. Both species have a progenitor species from which we and the monkeys(and all other hominids for that matter) branched from.

To be realistic one should look at the evidence, like the genetic evidence being used in this discussion. The only real way to get out of this is to claim humans are not animals, which of course opens up a whole can of worms.
Then why do we even have the story of Adam and Eve? The fact it is relevant gives credence to God creating us. There is evidence that we were created by God and not a split off of something else.
Adam and eve is an allegory, rewritten by bronze age nomads from an even earlier religion. It is not science. Besides, if you read the hebrew, Adam (mankind) was fashioned from edamah (red clay).. the word (edamah is a related word to 'blood'). So God fashioned Mankind from flesh and blood.

If God is so powerful he can make the sun stand still, he certainly can use make a man out of a monkey.
But! What if the account was written as is!?? Wow! Fact is, there is a narrative in place that indicates God created us as humans. I call this evidence.
Wow, it is a fact that there is a narrative that Harry Potter uses a pheonix feather in his wand. That is what I call evidence of a pheonix.
Well, the Adam and Eve story has been valid as non-fiction for 4,000 plus years. Lets see how harry potter stacks up.
Sigh,,,.. an allegory is just an allegory. You can proclaim it to be the literal truth all you want, it doesn't make it so.

It doesn't matter how long or how many people accepted it as literal truth. We know it isn't now... well most of us.
Wrong. In this.. Sigh.. forum.. how long and how many people accepted does have merit. It is evidence that the Adam and Eve were created by God. It is not an allegory. So, please don't assign the laws of allegory to Adam and Eve. Sigh.
I do. If you look at the Hebew, it is obviously allegorical. The puns alone prove that.

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Post #16

Post by Wyvern »

AB, if popularity and longevity are valid arguments for truth then that means both Hinduism and Buddhism among the major religions of the world are more true than christianity. Since both have been around longer and until the last few centuries had more adherents.

On another point if god created humans in a special manner as you seem to espouse why is there ANY similarity between us and other species?

Yet another point, If Adam and Eve were actually the first two humans, This means that these two people combined had EVERY single genetic disorder within their DNA and then they were made to inbreed for literally thousands of years. Under your scenario humanity would have died out long ago due to lack of genetic diversity. Even the authors of the bible understood the dangers of inbreeding.

Biker

Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #17

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
Debating aside, yes the scientists of evolution are chasing an illusion. Stand back and look at the evidence, there is much more proof of us being human and not having a great grandmonkey.
Your second sentence is correct, we are human, there has never been any disagreement to this point that I am aware of. Also true is that we don't have a great grandmonkey. Both species have a progenitor species from which we and the monkeys(and all other hominids for that matter) branched from.

To be realistic one should look at the evidence, like the genetic evidence being used in this discussion. The only real way to get out of this is to claim humans are not animals, which of course opens up a whole can of worms.
Then why do we even have the story of Adam and Eve? The fact it is relevant gives credence to God creating us. There is evidence that we were created by God and not a split off of something else.
Adam and eve is an allegory, rewritten by bronze age nomads from an even earlier religion. It is not science. Besides, if you read the hebrew, Adam (mankind) was fashioned from edamah (red clay).. the word (edamah is a related word to 'blood'). So God fashioned Mankind from flesh and blood.

If God is so powerful he can make the sun stand still, he certainly can use make a man out of a monkey.
But! What if the account was written as is!?? Wow! Fact is, there is a narrative in place that indicates God created us as humans. I call this evidence.
Wow, it is a fact that there is a narrative that Harry Potter uses a pheonix feather in his wand. That is what I call evidence of a pheonix.
Well, the Adam and Eve story has been valid as non-fiction for 4,000 plus years. Lets see how harry potter stacks up.
Sigh,,,.. an allegory is just an allegory. You can proclaim it to be the literal truth all you want, it doesn't make it so.

It doesn't matter how long or how many people accepted it as literal truth. We know it isn't now... well most of us.
Wrong. In this.. Sigh.. forum.. how long and how many people accepted does have merit. It is evidence that the Adam and Eve were created by God. It is not an allegory. So, please don't assign the laws of allegory to Adam and Eve. Sigh.
I do. If you look at the Hebew, it is obviously allegorical. The puns alone prove that.
I'm looking at the Hebrew-Chaldee,so please explain to me how the Adam and Eve account in Genesis is obviously "allegorical", and explain the "puns"?

Biker

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Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #18

Post by Goat »

Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
I'm looking at the Hebrew-Chaldee,so please explain to me how the Adam and Eve account in Genesis is obviously "allegorical", and explain the "puns"?

Biker
Adam is a generic term from Man Kind. It is related to the word adamah, which is "red clay" , which is related to the term Edom, which means blood. Eve is Hebrew for Love/life. So, God fashion mankind out of flesh and blood, and gave him love/life as a compangion.

Then, there is tge tern 'brit' being used for 'cut off', which is a reference to curcumsion.. and others besides.

Biker

Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #19

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
I'm looking at the Hebrew-Chaldee,so please explain to me how the Adam and Eve account in Genesis is obviously "allegorical", and explain the "puns"?

Biker
Adam is a generic term from Man Kind. It is related to the word adamah, which is "red clay" , which is related to the term Edom, which means blood. Eve is Hebrew for Love/life. So, God fashion mankind out of flesh and blood, and gave him love/life as a compangion.

Then, there is tge tern 'brit' being used for 'cut off', which is a reference to curcumsion.. and others besides.
Goat,
This doesn't answer the question about allegorical.Adam,the noun usually refers to mankind in the collective sense, but in Genesis2:7, it is a proper noun. Throughout Gen. 2:5-5:5 there is a constant shifting and interrelationship between the generic and the individual uses.Adam was an individual, not an allegory.

Biker

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Re: Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #20

Post by Goat »

Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
I'm looking at the Hebrew-Chaldee,so please explain to me how the Adam and Eve account in Genesis is obviously "allegorical", and explain the "puns"?

Biker
Adam is a generic term from Man Kind. It is related to the word adamah, which is "red clay" , which is related to the term Edom, which means blood. Eve is Hebrew for Love/life. So, God fashion mankind out of flesh and blood, and gave him love/life as a compangion.

Then, there is tge tern 'brit' being used for 'cut off', which is a reference to curcumsion.. and others besides.
Goat,
This doesn't answer the question about allegorical.Adam,the noun usually refers to mankind in the collective sense, but in Genesis2:7, it is a proper noun. Throughout Gen. 2:5-5:5 there is a constant shifting and interrelationship between the generic and the individual uses.Adam was an individual, not an allegory.

Biker
That's the pun.. so sorry if you can't see it.

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