How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #141

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #142]
Theories in the sciences stand or fall on the basis of how well their empirical expectations stand up against observation, nothing else is relevant, nothing, not the beliefs of the proponents, not the number of the proponents, none of that matters.
Exactly! This is precisely why evolution has reached the level of formal scientific theory. A few scientists voicing objections does not undo empirical observations or falsify the theory unless they or the scienfitic community can demonstrate that their objections are valid. But so far that has not happened. People aren't likely to jump ship on evolution unless and until someone comes along with valid objections that hold water.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #142

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

DrNoGods wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:57 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #142]
Theories in the sciences stand or fall on the basis of how well their empirical expectations stand up against observation, nothing else is relevant, nothing, not the beliefs of the proponents, not the number of the proponents, none of that matters.
Exactly! This is precisely why evolution has reached the level of formal scientific theory. A few scientists voicing objections does not undo empirical observations or falsify the theory unless they or the scienfitic community can demonstrate that their objections are valid. But so far that has not happened. People aren't likely to jump ship on evolution unless and until someone comes along with valid objections that hold water.
The number is irrelevant, the number reflects a huge number of variables, few scientists for example even bother to seek out such cases since they are not overly concerned about the presence of discrepancies or they regard discrepancies as artifacts, apparent, not real so simply never pay them the attention that is necessary to fully recognize them as problems.

Can the few ever be right? can the many ever be wrong?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #143

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:08 pm (To another poster)
...
This is why I have refused to debate and discuss this with you, I do not and will not debate evolution on your unscientific terms.
...
Your call.

Some observers may note you have a disagreement with the science involved, but refuse to, or are incapable of presenting that flawed science for examination and analysis.

What, specifically, do you find problematic about evolutionary theory?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #144

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:51 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:08 pm (To another poster)
...
This is why I have refused to debate and discuss this with you, I do not and will not debate evolution on your unscientific terms.
...
Your call.

Some observers may note you have a disagreement with the science involved, but refuse to, or are incapable of presenting that flawed science for examination and analysis.

What, specifically, do you find problematic about evolutionary theory?
Why do you ask? what do you seek? There are problems in the theory, observations that are counter to empirical expectations, do you agree with this?

If you do not, then we have nothing to debate, if you do, then what are some of these problems? I don't expect you to regard the problems as proof that the theory is flawed, I don't expect that, but I do expect you to tell me what problems there are, even if you think they are not a threat to the theory.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #145

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #144]
The number is irrelevant, the number reflects a huge number of variables, few scientists for example even bother to seek out such cases since they are not overly concerned about the presence of discrepancies or they regard discrepancies as artifacts, apparent, not real so simply never pay them the attention that is necessary to fully recognize them as problems.
Number of what? Problems or scientists? It isn't clear what you are saying here. If "cases" means objections to evolution raised by scientists who question it then how do you know that no one has investigated them, or ignored them out of hand? I'd think this depends on how serious the objections are and if they have any evidence to support them. Flat earth claims are justifiably ignored because we know with 100% certainty that the Earth is an oblate spheroid. I've seen some arguments against evolution that are just as senseless and don't deserve to be considered (eg. that it can't be correct because it doesn't explain the origin of life, when it has nothing to do with that subject). But if there were legitimate objections to evolution that could be backed up with some evidence, it would not simply be ignored by everyone in the field.
Can the few ever be right? can the many ever be wrong?
Of course. But these positions have to be justified beyond just proclamations. Repeating your own comment from post 142:

"Theories in the sciences stand or fall on the basis of how well their empirical expectations stand up against observation, nothing else is relevant, nothing, not the beliefs of the proponents, not the number of the proponents, none of that matters."

Challenges to evolution have to stand up to this same standard ... supported by empirical observations and demonstrated to be valid ... whether proposed by the few or the many.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #146

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:06 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:51 pm ...
Some observers may note you have a disagreement with the science involved, but refuse to, or are incapable of presenting that flawed science for examination and analysis.

What, specifically, do you find problematic about evolutionary theory?
Why do you ask?
That I might learn
What do you seek?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
There are problems in the theory, observations that are counter to empirical expectations, do you agree with this?
I can't agree to data you're refusing to present.

What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
If you do not, then we have nothing to debate, if you do, then what are some of these problems?
You're trying to fit your yoke to my horse.

What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
I don't expect you to regard the problems...
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
as proof that the theory is flawed, I don't expect that, but I do expect you to tell me what problems
Second attempt to shift the burden.

I'm glad we ain't pushing a boulder uphill.

What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
What problems, specifically, do you see?
there are, even if you think they are not a threat to the theory.
"SQUAAAAWK, PROBLEMS I WON'T TELL! SQUAAAAWK, PROBLEMS I WON'T TELL! SQUAAAAWK, PROBLEMS I WON'T TELL!"

Is it the goofiest attempt at 'debate' I've ever seen in all my born days.

Face it, if your argument was as worthy as you think it is, you'd be sending all of us pics of it in our DMs.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #147

Post by The Barbarian »

Just pointing out that only a tiny minority of biologists doubt macroevolution. As you see, those that do, are almost entirely doing so for religious reasons . Kurt Wise and Todd Wood, for example, admit that evolution is a successful theory with strong evidenece for it. They just prefer their particular interpretation of Genesis.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:08 pmWhich serves as a perfect example of why you and I cannot meaningfully debate evolution.
You could if you'd just have enough confidence in your evidence to show it to us. But you seem completely unwilling to do that.
As I explained:

You regard the popularity of evolution theory as an argument in favor of evolution theory
No, in fact when you made an appeal to what scientists think, I showed you that most of them did accept evolutionary theory. You've ceased to use the popularity argument now, and in fact, you're trying to get me to endorse it.
You regard the fact that most evolutionists are atheists as an argument in favor of evolution theory,
I'm pretty sure that you know I never said anything like that. No matter how difficult it might seem to you, you can always make it worse by posting falsehoods.

(HINT: imagine I had argued "evolution supporters entirely do so for atheistic reasons").

Instead you made up that story and insist that I believe it.
Theories in the sciences stand or fall on the basis of how well their empirical expectations stand up against observation
Good that you admit it. So here's your chance to show us those observations that are problematical for evolutionary theory. Will you continue insisting that you have such observations, that you can't show us?
This is why I have refused to debate and discuss this with you, I do not and will not debate evolution on your unscientific terms.
You mentioned a different person here; put it up for him, then. By now, I'm sure you realize that people are concluding that you don't have anything to show.
I see you refused to answer my two questions,
You were asked several first, and refused to answer. I'll let the audience judge that refusal for themselves

We'll just conclude you have nothing but denial, since you can't provide any evidence for your beliefs.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #148

Post by The Barbarian »

s

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #149

Post by JoeyKnothead »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:30 pm ...
We'll just conclude you have nothing but denial, since you can't provide any evidence for your beliefs.
Heck, he done took to begging me to present these 'problems' for him, on multiple occasions. Like I'm clairvoyant or something.

I just don't get it how one'd enter a debate site, then refuse to do em any of it.

I reckon though, when you're taught you'll find God's favor if you'll just believe, honor and integrity are the first things to go.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #150

Post by The Barbarian »

I guess we'll never get to see those problems he thinks evolutionary theory has.

There are all sorts of problems in evolutionary theory, as there are in any useful scientific theory. A theory with no remaining problems is dead.

Some problems current in evolutionary theory:
1. relative importance of neutral mutations and very slightly harmful or useful mutations in evolution.
2. Relative importance of gradual and rapid evolutionary changes
3. How complex features evolve.
4. Trends in evolution; how do they happen, and what causes them.

These are issues that are still debated by scientists. But I don't think our reluctant objector knows much about any of them.

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