The meaning of evidence

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Sherlock Holmes

The meaning of evidence

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This thread is to discuss the meaning of the term "evidence" particularly with respect to claims made by evolution advocates.

The reason I started this thread is that I often see - what I regard as - a conflation of consistent with and evidence for. If we are to make reasonable inferences and maintain objectivity and avoid making assumption unwittingly then the more precisely we define "evidence" the better I think.

The biggest risk here is to imply that some observation P is evidence for X and only X, rather than evidence for X and Y or Z. Unless we are on our guard we can informally exclude reasonable possibilities Y and Z and so on. Now the observation P might well be evidence for X and only X, but unless that is soundly established we simply can't assume that.

If we mistakenly regard P as evidence for X and only X then we fall into the trap of believing that P can only be observed if X was the cause.

This is exemplified by an analogy I recently put together that I think warrants its own thread, so here it is:


Consider this jigsaw

Image


None of the circles overlap, we can see this when we can see the totality of the jigsaw. But if we already believed for some reason or other, that they must overlap and we only had twenty random pieces and never see the rest, we could make up a jigsaw (theory) where we "fill in the blanks" so to speak and "show" that we sometimes have overlapping circles.

We'd be absolutely right too in saying the twenty pieces were consistent with an image that has overlapping circles, but we'd be dead wrong to say the twenty pieces are evidence of overlapping circles, because as we know, none of the circles actually do overlap.

So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #141

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:42 pm Jose for the third time I never said there was or would be such behavior, I asked how can we justify the assumption that there won't be unintended consequences, it is an assumption and it needs to be called out as an assumption not swept under the rug and referred to as a "fact".
So your expectation is that others disprove the existence of "unintended consequences" that you can't name, describe, or give any information at all about.

And you see that as a good argument?

I'll let that speak for itself.

Also, the very notion of "unintended consequences" assumes an intent to the process. Evolution, like erosion and tectonics, has no intent. That's why your argument is both uniformed and a false analogy.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #142

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:08 pmIn other words biological systems too, might also contain "bugs" that are only observable after a 100,000 years, in which case we'd never know of them would we? These in turn might be bugs that inhibit the kind of evolution you are so confident took place.
Why would you think those don't happen or you don't see them? Easy examples crop up with invasive species. In an environment where all local organisms are evolving together, a particular defect may not be exercised soon enough in the process. The New Zealand Kākāpō is an example of this. In the absence of mammalian predators, flight loss was no big deal. Lack of flight has a number of advantages, including larger potential size and slower metabolism. The bug is that in the presence of predators, the system would fail catastrophically and it has.

I've also mentioned in other threads that our risk-reward analysis circuitry is messed up near the boundaries. Predatory human beings leverage those failures by turning gambling into an industry. Our circuitry fails in two critical ways that didn't get enough testing during the development phase. First, risk-reward of slightly under 100% expected payout is evaluated as a good risk, even over long sessions where the tiny loss is multiplied by being repeated many times. That's most casino games. Second, payouts above a certain size are calculated to be a good risk even when the overall expected payout is very low, sometimes near zero. That's lottery tickets.

Another one that I just thought of is that we're "designed" to panic when we're not getting enough air. The problem is that the system doesn't respond to lack of oxygen, but to the presence of too much carbon dioxide. If we're in an environment where we're getting even no oxygen, we won't notice if we can continue exchanging the CO2 out of our blood. Being prevented from breathing got lots of testing. Being in a low-oxygen, high-nitrogen environment, not so much.

Another is our response to resources that are normally scarce. Fat, carbohydrate, and salt all taste good to us. The problem is that they don't ever start tasting bad when we have a constant surplus. An overabundance of food dense in calories and salt isn't one of the things that got a whole lot of testing while the systems were still in development.

There's no conceivable reason for the circuitry to work exactly as it does. An intelligent designer, or at least one that wants to keep her job, would normally anticipate such things, or at least hire a better QC person.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #143

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:08 pm I then asked how can we be confident about evolution taking place over millions of years based on real world tests that span only a few years, we can test software for a week or two, sign it off and deploy it only to find examples starting to misbehave after a year in the field (Oh man, we forgot that the 32 bit counter would wrap around or Oh man we never expected a division by zero at that point, I mean we check for that at step 127, how on earth could that...).
When such deleterious defects start piling up, critters tend to extinction.

What, other'n the problem of going extinct, is the problem?
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #144

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:46 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:42 pm Jose for the third time I never said there was or would be such behavior, I asked how can we justify the assumption that there won't be unintended consequences, it is an assumption and it needs to be called out as an assumption not swept under the rug and referred to as a "fact".
So your expectation is that others disprove the existence of "unintended consequences" that you can't name, describe, or give any information at all about.
Must I repeat myself? My expectation is that evolution advocates admit this is an assumption, just acknowledge that.
Jose Fly wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:46 pm And you see that as a good argument?

I'll let that speak for itself.

Also, the very notion of "unintended consequences" assumes an intent to the process. Evolution, like erosion and tectonics, has no intent. That's why your argument is both uniformed and a false analogy.
Alright, I used several words so lets stick with "unanticipated" consequences, unanticipated by evolution advocates. Evolution - that is the extrapolation of it to very long time frames - assumes there are no unanticipated consequences or emergent behaviors that can thwart evolution.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #145

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:09 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:08 pmIn other words biological systems too, might also contain "bugs" that are only observable after a 100,000 years, in which case we'd never know of them would we? These in turn might be bugs that inhibit the kind of evolution you are so confident took place.
Why would you think those don't happen or you don't see them? Easy examples crop up with invasive species. In an environment where all local organisms are evolving together, a particular defect may not be exercised soon enough in the process. The New Zealand Kākāpō is an example of this. In the absence of mammalian predators, flight loss was no big deal. Lack of flight has a number of advantages, including larger potential size and slower metabolism. The bug is that in the presence of predators, the system would fail catastrophically and it has.
Yes but how do you know they do not always eventually manifest? How do you know that the purported long term potential of evolution can ever be achieved when we test and observe only over the short term? Obviously we cannot, we must assume, do you agree?
Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:09 pm I've also mentioned in other threads that our risk-reward analysis circuitry is messed up near the boundaries. Predatory human beings leverage those failures by turning gambling into an industry. Our circuitry fails in two critical ways that didn't get enough testing during the development phase. First, risk-reward of slightly under 100% expected payout is evaluated as a good risk, even over long sessions where the tiny loss is multiplied by being repeated many times. That's most casino games. Second, payouts above a certain size are calculated to be a good risk even when the overall expected payout is very low, sometimes near zero. That's lottery tickets.

Another one that I just thought of is that we're "designed" to panic when we're not getting enough air. The problem is that the system doesn't respond to lack of oxygen, but to the presence of too much carbon dioxide. If we're in an environment where we're getting even no oxygen, we won't notice if we can continue exchanging the CO2 out of our blood. Being prevented from breathing got lots of testing. Being in a low-oxygen, high-nitrogen environment, not so much.

Another is our response to resources that are normally scarce. Fat, carbohydrate, and salt all taste good to us. The problem is that they don't ever start tasting bad when we have a constant surplus. An overabundance of food dense in calories and salt isn't one of the things that got a whole lot of testing while the systems were still in development.

There's no conceivable reason for the circuitry to work exactly as it does. An intelligent designer, or at least one that wants to keep her job, would normally anticipate such things, or at least hire a better QC person.
Where in this present discussion did I refer to intelligent designers? I am discussing specifically the fact that short term observations cannot discover long term inhibitive behavior if that behavior only manifests after hundreds of thousands or millions of years - you seem reticent to admit this.

I've referred to how this plagues software systems to better explain what I'm driving at.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #146

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:47 am Alright, I used several words so lets stick with "unanticipated" consequences.
Yes, there's evolutionary consequences we ain't thunk up yet.
Evolution - that is the extrapolation of it to very long time frames - assumes there are no unanticipated consequences or emergent behaviors that can thwart evolution.
Not so much.

While theories involving evolutionary consequences can't keep up, evolution continues in total disregard of those upset we humans can't predict all the consequences of it.

Fact: evolution

Fact: consequences cause of it

Not so fact: humans can predict each and every consequence of it

Conclusions?

Evolution's gonna keep on abeing it, no matter how upset it is we get at not being able to predict how it goes about the being it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #147

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:04 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:08 pm I then asked how can we be confident about evolution taking place over millions of years based on real world tests that span only a few years, we can test software for a week or two, sign it off and deploy it only to find examples starting to misbehave after a year in the field (Oh man, we forgot that the 32 bit counter would wrap around or Oh man we never expected a division by zero at that point, I mean we check for that at step 127, how on earth could that...).
When such deleterious defects start piling up, critters tend to extinction.

What, other'n the problem of going extinct, is the problem?
Stasis, relatively no net novelty accumulation. Evolution is basically a claimed long term accumulation of novelty, novelty as a result of accumulated adaptations.

Adaptation is necessary for evolution but is it sufficient? If it is not then we cannot claim evolution (long term novelty accumulation) is a fact, it may be that all that ever happens is nothing more than adaptation "survival" in the face of environmental changes and nothing more. Look at the history of prokaryotes, they persisted with no real novelty emerging for some 1,700,000,000 years.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #148

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:05 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:47 am Alright, I used several words so lets stick with "unanticipated" consequences.
Yes, there's evolutionary consequences we ain't thunk up yet.
Evolution - that is the extrapolation of it to very long time frames - assumes there are no unanticipated consequences or emergent behaviors that can thwart evolution.
Not so much.

While theories involving evolutionary consequences can't keep up, evolution continues in total disregard of those upset we humans can't predict all the consequences of it.

Fact: evolution

Fact: consequences cause of it

Not so fact: humans can predict each and every consequence of it

Conclusions?

Evolution's gonna keep on abeing it, no matter how upset it is we get at not being able to predict how it goes about the being it.
I understand your belief, I just don't share it, I have an absence of belief in magic.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #149

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:12 pm I understand your belief, I just don't share it, I have an absence of belief in magic.
The fact of evolution ain't held on the power of one's belief.

Nor on your trying to if your way into an argument against it.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #150

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:36 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:12 pm I understand your belief, I just don't share it, I have an absence of belief in magic.
The fact of evolution ain't held on the power of one's belief.

Nor on your trying to if your way into an argument against it.
I'm not trying to win anything Joey, the last thing I expect is for you to change your position.

You believe that tiny adaptive changes observed in the lab over short time periods is sufficient to lead to ever accumulating novelty over the long term.

You seem to ignore the potential for detrimental characteristics to emerge in the long term, I gave you simple examples from computing where engineers are unable to foresee this in software, despite knowing everything about the computer down to the finest detail. Even though they know exactly what a CPU will do, as soon as it interacts with an environment and as its internal state becomes more complex, there is no way to foresee certain problems and there are always problems so run soak tests often for months, to weed these out. These kinds of problems simply do not appear under short tests, it must be long running tests, only long running tests can discover these problems.

You therefore believe that biological systems are free of this behavior, nothing more than belief.

It is state that is the problem, take a look at finite state machines, get some idea of what I'm talking about.

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