Is prayer really communication with God?

[Diagoras]

From a different thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma:

The only miracle I know of that everyone can perform today on demand is prayer. Communication with a being that doesn't even live in our space-time continuum is quite a miracle. Technologically speaking mankind can't make any form of communication move faster than the speed of light. Yet in prayer we can talk to God who lives in a whole other universe that we cannot measure even less reach and He can, through holy spirit, direct us to the Bible to communicate back to us.

There are multiple claims within this quote: There exists a god who ‘lives in a whole other universe’. Two-way communication with this god is possible through prayer (from ‘us’) and ‘holy spirit’ (from ‘god’). The holy spirit’s effect is to ‘direct us to the Bible’. And finally, everyone can perform this miracle on demand.

Questions for debate: Can any of this be proven to be true?

What sort of experiment could we devise to satisfactorily test this? And why should the ‘holy spirit’ be confined to just directing the praying person to a book?

I submit as the null hypothesis that such ‘communication’ is purely one’s own internal thoughts - either consciously or subconsciously ‘thinking through a problem’, or possibly (and rarely) an effect of some neurological condition such as schizophrenia. No god involved.

A stipulation for the debate: individual anecdotes along the lines of “I prayed for X and it came true� won’t be considered as strong evidence.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 17 by Clownboat]

I am a former believer and therefore held the magical powers of understanding prayer that you claim alludes the rest of humanity.

There is no such thing as a former believer. If Jesus did not keep you, you were never His.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes substaniated by documented evidence (presented in the bible) and the personal experience of believers.

Just a reminder about the forum guidelines:

This subforum is designed to foster debate on issues which intersect science and religion. While posters may certainly take positions based on religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims.

Thank you for the reminder. Are you suggesting I presented my biblical evidence as "evidence for scientific claims"? If so may I draw your attenntion to what I actually said, rather than what you may have imagined I said

Science hasn't advanced enough to deal with the supernatural so it can neither prove nor disprove anything to do with this realm, logically then it will have to settle on documented personal experience until it advances enough to do better.

I understand that for those that have elevated science to the position of a god that it might be upsettjng to learn that there are some things science simply cannot do, but one has to accept the limits of scientific discovery and turn elsewhere if one wishes to further ones search for truth.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Does one hear a distinct voice in one’s head? Get a clear image? Or feel a strong compunction to open a bible at a particular point - or seemingly at random? Is there a clear correlation between the specificity of a question and the specificity of the answer? “Lord, make me a better person� could be interpreted as having been answered if the next day, you just felt calmer about things and were generally more pleasant to people.

You seem here to be inviting personal experience, why? Have you not been trying to say that such information has no place in this thread?




JW

[Diagoras]

Why would you think that anyone can do this? Prayer is only for those who believe

It’s not my claim. Maybe 2timothy316 needs to clarify what he meant, but meanwhile we have conflicting claims from Christians here: either everyone, or only a restricted few.

God does not hear the prayers of those who are not believers.

Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to instead assume that an all-powerful being could hear perfectly well, but chose not to reply? How should we interpret the unanswered prayers of believers in this case? They appear no different from the prayers of unbelievers.

And if I pray for ‘something nice happening to me tomorrow’, and I then win the lottery, how is that distinguishable from the answered prayers of a believer? Hint: it isn’t.

Christians do believe that we can and do exist in "other dimensions" for lack of better terms. It is our spirit that is connected to this other dimension.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

Nothing about the spirit (soul) being connected to other dimensions. It seems to stress the ‘single nature’.

As far as I know atheist do not believe that part of a humans anatomy is spirit. So how would an atheist communicate with God?

Presumably, even an atheist has a spirit (you claim), so the mechanics would work the same way as they do for a believer. God could still hear, and reply if he wished to.

The bible documents occasions when God didn’t just reply ‘in spirit’, but turned up in deity (sounds odd, but ‘in person’ wouldn’t be accurate). I’m not a biblical scholar, but maybe someone knows of an occasion when he appeared to an unbeliever in some way?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 17 by Clownboat]

I am a former believer and therefore held the magical powers of understanding prayer that you claim alludes the rest of humanity.

There is no such thing as a former believer. If Jesus did not keep you, you were never His.

Sure there are. I'm one too. There's a bunch of us. Of course to hold to Christian propaganda, one has to deny that reality.


Tcg

[Tcg]

I understand that for those that have elevated science to the position of a god...

Why would anyone lower science in that manner? I'm not aware of any reason to turn science into a series of unverifiable mythological claims.


Tcg

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 26 by Tcg]

Why would anyone lower science in that manner? I'm not aware of any reason to turn science into a series of unverifiable mythological claims.

It would indeed be a demotion for science, and add the complication that you'd need many different sciences which are partially, or completely, incompatible with the others.

Better to apply science where it is useful and productive (ie. study of the natural, physical world) and leave religion in the realm of the supernatural and not try to mix the two.

The attempts by some creationists to claim that creationism is compatible with modern science is a waste of time because this effort cannot possibly succeed, and because it is not necessary or useful. Most atheists and scientists (or atheist scientists) that I know are perfectly happy to coexist with religious people and let them do their thing ... as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on those who have no interest in adopting them, or inject them into the science world to try and influence funding decisions, research topics, etc.

[Diagoras]

Yes substaniated by documented evidence (presented in the bible) and the personal experience of believers.

Are you suggesting I presented my biblical evidence as "evidence for scientific claims"?

Well, all I can say is that you posted in the scientific forum and you apparently know the guidelines. What was I supposed to think?

I understand that for those that have elevated science to the position of a god that it might be upsettjng to learn that there are some things science simply cannot do, but one has to accept the limits of scientific discovery and turn elsewhere if one wishes to further ones search for truth.

Ably answered by others, I see.

[Diagoras]

You seem here to be inviting personal experience, why? Have you not been trying to say that such information has no place in this thread?

Fair point. But I hope we can draw a distinction between experiences of ‘results’ (unverifiable, etc) and experiences of ‘process’ (‘I just get a feeling’) that might offer clues to any underlying explanation for H2D Comm.

If everyone receives the holy spirit reply in the same way, that would be stronger evidence for something genuinely happening outside a person’s head.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes substaniated by documented evidence (presented in the bible) and the personal experience of believers.

Are you suggesting I presented my biblical evidence as "evidence for scientific claims"?

Well, all I can say is that you posted in the scientific forum and you apparently know the guidelines. What was I supposed to think?

It is not my job to teach you what to think I can but draw you attention to this subforums guidelines...

This subforum is designed to foster debate on issues which intersect science and religion. While posters may certainly take positions based on religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims[/i].

It should not therefore destabilize anyone if they see posts in this forum where posters state their position based on religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings. Unless such ones claim they are wish their position to be considered a scientific claim (which I did not) then there is no reason to be overly conserned such evidence being posted in this forum.

You may ignore the evidence being presented if your more comforable with that.



JW