If There is no such thing as "Intelligent Design".

[Elijah John]

If there is no such thing as "Intelligent Design", why do intelligent designers (scientists, inventors and engineers) look to Nature for inspiration?

Disclaimer: Please don't make this a thread about atheistic Evolution vs (six day) Biblical Creation, there are other possibilities and combinations to consider.

Some examples from a National Geographic article:

The science of biomimetics including,

-More efficient streamlining based on the structure of the boxfish. (Mercedes study)
-The thorny devil lizard, in effect drinking water through it's scales, actually whisking water via channels between it's scales to it's mouth. (for the irrigation of arid enviroments)
-burs inspired the design of velcro
-the waterproof properties of the lotus leaf is self-cleaning and has inspired "Lotosan" paint, said to better resist water and stains.
-sharkskin scales inhibit the growth and attachment of barnicles and is being studied for ways to treat the hull surfaces of navy ships to make them cleaner and faster.

And of course, the streamline shape of the Mako Shark in inspiring the Corvette. .

Of course there are many other examples of human invention being inspired by Natural (Intelligent?) design.

Granted, this is not proof of a creative Deity, (evidence, perhaps) but for debate, isn't it ironic that some very intelligent and creative people deny design in Nature while at the same time looking to it for inspiration?

And though National Geographic did not address Theistic or Deistic implications, are these examples evidence of at least a Deistic interpretation of the natural world?

[Bust Nak]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 414#897414]
The theory of the BB is the evidence of the beginning of the universe. The BB is an event.
What you wrote above is the same as saying that 'the human had a beginning, the sperm and egg doesn't'.

No it is not, because egg and sperm do have a beginning, where as the BB doesn't.

There ya go. "The universe had a beginning, the Big Bang represents that."

But the BB doesn't have a beginning.

Magical thinking. See my other posts which explain why this is magical thinking.

It is science.

Also, support your claim here, and perhaps cite scientists regarding this assertion.

That would be an appeal to authority, instead I will point out that special theory of relativity postulated space and time are two sides of the same coin and spacetime begin at the Big Bang.

Correct. Only I am not 'conceding' anything as I have never stated anything but that the question of the idea of GOD is a philosophical one, not a scientific one.

I don't conflate the two. One deals with the physical reality and the other deals with ideas on how that reality came to be.

Cool, that is a refreshing change from the typical creationist stance.

Ah well. There is little more I can add then to show you where they are not. I guess we are done here?

Guess so.

No. I was answering your assertion, remember - you said;

"Assume the Big Bang is eternal and thus has no beginning and thus requires no explanation regarding who or what created the Big Bang, done."

You were claiming that assuming the above was allowed since I was assuming GOD was eternal. I in turn explained that you were conflating. The assumptions are not the same because the subjects are different, and we KNOW that the universe had a beginning.

Not sure what you are getting at here. You assume God does not have a beginning, I assume the BB does not have a beginning. If you are allowed to assume it but I cannot, then you are guilty of special pleading. So what if we KNOW the universe had a beginning?

If the BB event was eternal it would still be happening and scientists wouldn't speak of CMB as being evidence that something happened (past tense) and that something which happened has been called the "Big Bang".

That doesn't follow, it is eternal because it doesn't have a beginning, it can still end.

So I am not insisting that an "eternal BB that did not have a beginning needs an explanation."

But there you are insisting it again.

Did you mean to write The BB actually happened? - As in, past tense.

Yes.

Why do you believe that?

Because there is no need for a creator.

Is it the same reason you believe the BB still exists and always will?

But I don't believe that.

Perhaps what you are trying to say is that the stuff of the universe has existed forever in various states, continually expanding and contracting and that each time it contracts into a point of infinite density the reaction is a 'Big Bang' which starts another process of creating another universe?

No, I am telling you, BB does not have a beginning and hence eternal.

No. I have been saying that assuming a creator requires a creator, requires a creator ad infinitum, is easily enough rebutted by simply assuming one creator which has always existed.

How is this any different from saying one creator which has always existed is easily rebutted by simply assuming a creator requires a creator, requires a creator ad infinitum? Why pick one scenario over the other?

Are we moving from "Timelessness vs infinite regress argument" to "The universe has always existed" argument?

No, but I will go there too if you like, but we should finish what we have here first.

[Waterfall]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 414#897414]
The theory of the BB is the evidence of the beginning of the universe. The BB is an event.
What you wrote above is the same as saying that 'the human had a beginning, the sperm and egg doesn't'.

No it is not, because egg and sperm do have a beginning, where as the BB doesn't.

There ya go. "The universe had a beginning, the Big Bang represents that."

But the BB doesn't have a beginning.

Magical thinking. See my other posts which explain why this is magical thinking.

It is science.

Also, support your claim here, and perhaps cite scientists regarding this assertion.

That would be an appeal to authority, instead I will point out that special theory of relativity postulated space and time are two sides of the same coin and spacetime begin at the Big Bang.

Correct. Only I am not 'conceding' anything as I have never stated anything but that the question of the idea of GOD is a philosophical one, not a scientific one.

I don't conflate the two. One deals with the physical reality and the other deals with ideas on how that reality came to be.

Cool, that is a refreshing change from the typical creationist stance.

Ah well. There is little more I can add then to show you where they are not. I guess we are done here?

Guess so.

No. I was answering your assertion, remember - you said;

"Assume the Big Bang is eternal and thus has no beginning and thus requires no explanation regarding who or what created the Big Bang, done."

You were claiming that assuming the above was allowed since I was assuming GOD was eternal. I in turn explained that you were conflating. The assumptions are not the same because the subjects are different, and we KNOW that the universe had a beginning.

Not sure what you are getting at here. You assume God does not have a beginning, I assume the BB does not have a beginning. If you are allowed to assume it but I cannot, then you are guilty of special pleading. So what if we KNOW the universe had a beginning?

If the BB event was eternal it would still be happening and scientists wouldn't speak of CMB as being evidence that something happened (past tense) and that something which happened has been called the "Big Bang".

That doesn't follow, it is eternal because it doesn't have a beginning, it can still end.

So I am not insisting that an "eternal BB that did not have a beginning needs an explanation."

But there you are insisting it again.

Did you mean to write The BB actually happened? - As in, past tense.

Yes.

Why do you believe that?

Because there is no need for a creator.

Is it the same reason you believe the BB still exists and always will?

But I don't believe that.

Perhaps what you are trying to say is that the stuff of the universe has existed forever in various states, continually expanding and contracting and that each time it contracts into a point of infinite density the reaction is a 'Big Bang' which starts another process of creating another universe?

No, I am telling you, BB does not have a beginning and hence eternal.

No. I have been saying that assuming a creator requires a creator, requires a creator ad infinitum, is easily enough rebutted by simply assuming one creator which has always existed.

How is this any different from saying one creator which has always existed is easily rebutted by simply assuming a creator requires a creator, requires a creator ad infinitum? Why pick one scenario over the other?

Are we moving from "Timelessness vs infinite regress argument" to "The universe has always existed" argument?

No, but I will go there too if you like, but we should finish what we have here first.

You seem to say there was a blank page and this blank page had allways existed? And then, suddenly, there was words on this blank page? I quess we someday will go back to this blank page and start all over again? And we cant do anything about it? What joy does sosh a universe bring to our life? Will you teach the youth about sosh a universe? And when they say...this is a very depressing universe...can you not come up whit something better? Who cares to go to the moon if we are living in a depressing universe? Why not give the youth some dope so they could flye away from this stupid life? How would you argue against that? If we say the universe is a depressing thing then we got problems...dont we? How can we justifie putting children into a universe like that? This I do not understand. Can we agree on anything? What is a good universe? What is a bad universe? What kind of universe are we living in? Who knows? The only thing we knows is that we do not want to put children into a bad universe, right?

[Bust Nak]

You seem to say there was a blank page and this blank page had allways existed? And then, suddenly, there was words on this blank page?

Something like that, just repeat whatever the creationists say, with God swapped out with BB and run with it.

I quess we someday will go back to this blank page and start all over again? And we cant do anything about it? What joy does sosh a universe bring to our life?

The universe does not owe us any joy.

Will you teach the youth about sosh a universe? And when they say...this is a very depressing universe...can you not come up whit something better?

Sure I can come up with something better, but I don't want to. Ask yourself this, imagine you are one of the youth I am teaching, would you want me to make things up just to feel more joy?

Who cares to go to the moon if we are living in a depressing universe? Why not give the youth some dope so they could flye away from this stupid life?

Wait, is that an amusing typo or you are suggesting drug use? Give people false hope so they can enjoy life doesn't sound like a good idea to me, whether it is via making things up or drug infused delusion.

How would you argue against that? If we say the universe is a depressing thing then we got problems...dont we? How can we justifie putting children into a universe like that? This I do not understand.

Or you can just find joy in a temporary and ultimately meaningless universe? It's not that hard, particular with today's technologies.

Can we agree on anything? What is a good universe? What is a bad universe? What kind of universe are we living in? Who knows? The only thing we knows is that we do not want to put children into a bad universe, right?

Right, but I think this universe is good enough for children.

[Waterfall]

Something like that, just repeat whatever the creationists say, with God swapped out with BB and run with it.

I was just trying to run whit it - but I am a theist, so...

The universe does not owe us any joy.

But do you not owe your kids any joy? A good life? A good universe?

Sure I can come up with something better, but I don't want to. Ask yourself this, imagine you are one of the youth I am teaching, would you want me to make things up just to feel more joy?

No, but I would ask you a lot of question. And when you came up whit stupid answers I would addres those stupid answers.

Wait, is that an amusing typo or you are suggesting drug use? Give people false hope so they can enjoy life doesn't sound like a good idea to me, whether it is via making things up or drug infused delusion.

Drugs would be a very good response to a depressing universe. A very good way out of this stupid world. Remember we are all going to die. Why not chose our own death? A good death?

Or you can just find joy in a temporary and ultimately meaningless universe? It's not that hard, particular with today's technologies.

How can I find joy in a depressing universe? You want me to find joy in the killing of people again and again? Remember we are living in a universe that does this to people. Is that not depressing?

Right, but I think this universe is good enough for children.

Well...just send your kids over to me...and I will teach you a lesson about the universe.

You see...the sun do not care about what I do to your kids...but you do, right?

You cannot seperate the universe from me.

The only thing you can do is to accept me and find a way out.

Theist has done that.

You see...I am not the devil...but I could be and I would not give a shit about your children.

For me they would just be a weapon.

I could hit you. I could beent your knees. But I am not the devil. I do not find pleasure in sosh things. But there are those who do. The dark force is not to be taking lightly. There is more to life than you think. Be a good knight. Be the prince on the white horse. And let all the ogly stuff to us. The children of the night. Well...I am drunk and I do what I want and now I want to show you something...not about me...but about you

[Bust Nak]

But do you not owe your kids any joy? A good life? A good universe?

Sure, that I can do something about.

No, but I would ask you a lot of question. And when you came up whit stupid answers I would addres those stupid answers.

There you go, you are referring to an intellectual stimulating conversation, that's one way of finding joy in an otherwise joyless universe.

Drugs would be a very good response to a depressing universe. A very good way out of this stupid world. Remember we are all going to die. Why not chose our own death? A good death?

Why not indeed, I am all for a good death. By all means chose a good death. I just don't think an overdose qualify as a good death though.

How can I find joy in a depressing universe?

Let you indicated above, you seem to be enjoying this conversation. That's one way. I build models and paint, that's another. I play board and video games, that's a third way. Why would these ways not suffice?

You want me to find joy in the killing of people again and again? Remember we are living in a universe that does this to people. Is that not depressing?

Slightly, but the joy I found outweighs it by a lot.

Well...just send your kids over to me...and I will teach you a lesson about the universe.

You see...the sun do not care about what I do to your kids...but you do, right?

You cannot seperate the universe from me.

Okay, in that sense then part of the universe does care about what happens to kids, part of the universe does owe us joy.

The only thing you can do is to accept me and find a way out.

Theist has done that.

You see...I am not the devil...but I could be and I would not give a shit about your children.

For me they would just be a weapon.

That's a good reason not to send my kids over to you.

That's a good reason not to send my kids over to you.I could hit you. I could beent your knees. But I am not the devil. I do not find pleasure in sosh things. But there are those who do. The dark force is not to be taking lightly. There is more to life than you think. Be a good knight. Be the prince on the white horse. And let all the ogly stuff to us. The children of the night. Well...I am drunk and I do what I want and now I want to show you something...not about me...but about you

I am perfectly aware that the universe is not all flowers, there are people out that who mean me harm, with all that in mind I am still fine in brining up children in this depressing universe. I don't find it all that depressing, and the joy I get out of life trumps that. More to the point, I can be that good knight and a prince on the white horse without presuming a god.

[William]

[Replying to post 31 by Bust Nak]

That doesn't follow, it is eternal because it doesn't have a beginning, it can still end.

There is your confusion then. in order for the BB to be eternal, it is necessary for it to not have a beginning OR an end.

How is this any different from saying one creator which has always existed is easily rebutted by simply assuming a creator requires a creator, requires a creator ad infinitum? Why pick one scenario over the other?

Occum's Razor is why pick one scenario over the other.

Are we moving from "Timelessness vs infinite regress argument" to "The universe has always existed" argument?

No, but I will go there too if you like, but we should finish what we have here first.

Okay.

[William]

[Replying to post 28 by Donray]

William you need answer one question. From what material did your god create the universe? Please be specific since you do know your god. And how did god get this material?

[Replying to post 30 by Donray]

William: Why didn't answer my question? Is that because you have no idea how your god would have created the universe.

I didn't answer your question because it seems secondary to the present argument. We all know the material of the universe exists, and my argument is that it is logical to assume it was created by an eternal being. Where that being got the material which constitutes the universe, cannot be known from our positions, but even so - that in itself does not mean we can conclude the being does not exist and did not create the universe.

I do have my theories on this of course, but they are of secondary relevance to this topic.

If you can convince me that the question of where the creator got Its materials from in order to create this universe is essential to the argument, I will be happy to include my theories on this and answer your question.

[Bust Nak]

There is your confusion then. in order for the BB to be eternal, it is necessary for it to not have a beginning OR an end.

Then by all means drop the eternal tag. A BB that does not have a beginning still needs no explanation.

Occum's Razor is why pick one scenario over the other.

Right, and the same razor cuts out that one creator.

[Waterfall]

Sure, that I can do something about.

But you cant do anything about a bad universe? What are you capable of? Not mosh, right? Maybe if you was the emperor, but still, you would need people to follow your commands, to protect you and your loveones.

We all need that.

But a bad universe? Who can do anything about that?

There you go, you are referring to an intellectual stimulating conversation, that's one way of finding joy in an otherwise joyless universe.

I do not find joy in that. A joyless universe is a joyless universe. Its like looking at a empty hand and you putting a stone in it. Something that do no matter. Its just a distraction. Is it a distraction that brings joy? Not to me. Its just like putting a beatyfull girl infront of me. As time goes by she will not look that pretty at all. But thats just me. Ofcourse you can find things that can satifie the moment. If you could give every man a wife then they would propably be satisfied. But you cant do that. Not even that I would say. What can you do? Can you change a bad universe? You can put a stone in my hand and you can say...go out there and bye a women whit this stone. I quess love has to have a reason...a stone...maybe a big stone will get me a better wife

Why not indeed, I am all for a good death. By all means chose a good death. I just don't think an overdose qualify as a good death though.

I am not sure about this because I have never tried it (OD) but is it a bad death? Do you fell anything bad? Maybe we should go whit dope and someone blowing ones brains out.

Let you indicated above, you seem to be enjoying this conversation. That's one way. I build models and paint, that's another. I play board and video games, that's a third way. Why would these ways not suffice?

If I am enjoying this conversation it most be because I think we are eternal beings talking about a bad universe. How else could I enjoy this conversation? If I really thought this universe was bad then I would be out there finding dope or a another way to leave this bad universe. But there are those who would desagree. Because should we not raise our woise to this insane universe before we go? Inspire people to do the right thing? Maybe drop the bomb?

Slightly, but the joy I found outweighs it by a lot.

A stone in your hand?

Okay, in that sense then part of the universe does care about what happens to kids, part of the universe does owe us joy.

What part?

That's a good reason not to send my kids over to you.

Well...you dont have to send them over to me...I can get them over at your place. Maybe ask one of your nabors? Its a fuck up world we are living in remember. Push a botton here push a botton there and wupti...your children would be here whit me.

I am perfectly aware that the universe is not all flowers, there are people out that who mean me harm, with all that in mind I am still fine in brining up children in this depressing universe. I don't find it all that depressing, and the joy I get out of life trumps that. More to the point, I can be that good knight and a prince on the white horse without presuming a god.

Good luck whit that

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 32 by Waterfall]

What joy does sosh a universe bring to our life? Will you teach the youth about sosh a universe? And when they say...this is a very depressing universe...can you not come up whit something better? Who cares to go to the moon if we are living in a depressing universe? Why not give the youth some dope so they could flye away from this stupid life? How would you argue against that? If we say the universe is a depressing thing then we got problems...dont we?

The universe is just a very big place. In the lifetime of any one individual it barely changes and is largely irrelevant. There is no meaning in saying that it is a joyless or depressing place.

The place that is relevant to us is our planet. It is not inherently joyful or joyless. Individual circumstances will determine that. The prospect of death being the end should not be allowed to unduly influence that. If it is the truth then we must make the most of what we have. Wishful thinking is not much different from taking drugs if we use it to escape from reality. People spend large amounts of money buying lottery tickets in the hope of winning a fortune. They gain a little joy from that hope. But for almost everyone the reality is that they will never win. Wishing, hoping, dreaming of a better future doesn't change that.

Believing in something does not have the power to make it true. Find your own joy in the one life that you will have.