Do patterns of phylogenesis show evolution?

[Difflugia]

Question for debate: Are the patterns seen in molecular phylogenies sufficient to show that biological evolution occurred?

For reference and easier Googling, the science of generating evolutionary trees is known as cladistics or phylogenetic systematics. Using DNA sequence data to generate the trees is molecular phylogeny.

The standard of evidence I'll be discussing is reasonable doubt. Even that's pretty broad, but if your argument hinges on "possible," you should be able to at least quantify that.

I've generated phylogenies using online tools previously and discussed them in this post. I tried to start a tutorial in this thread. If someone wants to discuss how to actually use the tools and data, feel free to ask questions in the tutorial thread and I'll pick it back up.

This debate question is a response to this comment.

[benchwarmer]

But let me rephrase the question...why haven't we observed the actual live birth transformation..from no- feathered reptiles, to feathered reptiles, in real time (live birth).

The mother and father lacking the feathers, to the offspring possessing the feathers?

That is what I meant.

And you complain that we keep telling you that you don't understand the science. Your question is proof you don't understand it.

If you are going to just argue strawmen, why even bother? Everyone watching knows what you are doing. I guess you like wasting your time or something.... You are certainly not convincing anyone of anything other than you don't understand what the science says.

[Jose Fly]

Why read a book when I have a genius biologist right here.

Well like I said, the only person to blame for your ignorance is you.

I don't believe based on ignorance. I don't believe based on knowledge.

Not when it comes to biology obviously.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Why aren't phylogenies evidence of evolution?

[marke]

What mechanism do you propose that better explains all the animals we see not just now, but also in the fossil record?

Genesis 1

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature...

Let's grant for a moment that your religious promotional material is correct on this matter for the sake of debate.


Question for you. In regards to the nylon eating bacteria (nylon is man made and doesn't exist in nature). Do you believe that your preferred God created this bacteria, or that the earth brought it forth? Did all 400,000 species of beetle evolve from a single male and female that was on a boat just some thousands of years ago, or were the 399,999 created by your preferred way after the fact?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Be well.

I assume bacteria is alive and not dead or inert. If so, then it's life originated with God, not some accidental unintelligent miracle of nature.

What if there was a God that created life and then the mechanism of evolution? That would mean that evolution is in fact intelligent and not accidental. Why are you willing to rule out the idea that gods did this? What is your reason for assuming that all powerful beings could not create life and the a process where it changes?

Now back to my questions if you would be so kind as to provide your thoughts:
- In regards to the nylon eating bacteria (nylon is man made and doesn't exist in nature). Do you believe that your preferred God created this bacteria, or that the earth brought it forth?
- Did all 400,000 species of beetle evolve from a single male and female that was on a boat just some thousands of years ago, or were the 399,999 created by your preferred way after the fact?

God created life. Life did not originate by accident, ignorance, or some other as yet unknown entity. Life forms created by God do have the ability to adapt and change, but there is no possibility that humans evolved from animals.

I find it disrespectful to quote someone's post they took time out of their day to create, but then not respond to the questions therein.

When you desire to make random, un-evidence claims, please don't pretend to be responding to an actual post like you did above. Such statements are meant for shouting at people from street corners while standing on a soap box IMO. Here we are to debate.

I do hope you got this off your chest though...
Much appreciated.

I know how you feel. I take a great deal of time to intelligently respond to atheists who have no respect for my views and slander me for posting them.

[SiNcE_1985]

And you complain that we keep telling you that you don't understand the science. Your question is proof you don't understand it.

Ok, I don't understand it.

If you are going to just argue strawmen, why even bother? Everyone watching knows what you are doing. I guess you like wasting your time or something.... You are certainly not convincing anyone of anything other than you don't understand what the science says.

Evolutionists: A reptile evolved into a bird.

Me: If a reptile evolved into a bird, then why haven't we observed any reptile-to-bird transformations in nature?

Evolutionists: If you think you can observe the things that we claim happens, you don't understand science, nor evolution.

No, you just can't make this stuff up.

[benchwarmer]

And you complain that we keep telling you that you don't understand the science. Your question is proof you don't understand it.

Ok, I don't understand it.

Finally, you admit it. Then please go educate yourself and come back when you do understand it. Honestly, the high level ideas are not that difficult to understand. In fact, it's so simple to understand the basic concepts, we can only assume you are purposely pretending to not understand because you don't like where that leads.

If you are going to just argue strawmen, why even bother? Everyone watching knows what you are doing. I guess you like wasting your time or something.... You are certainly not convincing anyone of anything other than you don't understand what the science says.

Evolutionists: A reptile evolved into a bird.

Which means birds are still of the same class as the reptiles they evolved from. This is what you can't seem to grasp.

Me: If a reptile evolved into a bird, then why haven't we observed any reptile-to-bird transformations in nature?

If you lived for millions/billions of years, you could indeed witness that transformation over time. Are you able to live that long?

Evolutionists: If you think you can observe the things that we claim happens, you don't understand science, nor evolution.

See above. Nowhere in the science does it say you can watch millions/billions of years of evolution in one short human lifespan. If you think the science says that, produce the paper/data/evidence.

No, you just can't make this stuff up.

It seems that you do make stuff up though. That you can't figure that out is the sad part.

[Clownboat]

I know how you feel. I take a great deal of time to intelligently respond to atheists who have no respect for my views and slander me for posting them.

Consider that it's possible that the views you lay out for them are not respected because they are in fact not intelligent. I'm sorry you have felt slandered though, but do consider the idea that the fault could lay with your posts.

Once again, you failed to address questions posed in what you quoted and that is rude. <--- This is your fault and a fault you continue to do. It is something you can fix though and is totally in your control.
I'll continue to try help you, as that is the Christlike thing to do.

1) What if there was a God that created life and then the mechanism of evolution? That would mean that evolution is in fact intelligent and not accidental. Why are you willing to rule out the idea that gods did this?
2) What is your reason for assuming that all powerful beings could not create life and then a process where it changes?
3) In regards to the nylon eating bacteria (nylon is man made and doesn't exist in nature). Do you believe that your preferred God created this bacteria, or that the earth brought it forth?
4) Did all 400,000 species of beetle evolve from a single male and female that was on a boat just some thousands of years ago, or were the 399,999 created by your preferred way after the fact?

Now, will you converse with me or will you continue to shout Allahu Akbar in my face or like just above, play the victim in place of answering questions?

[Clownboat]

Ok, I don't understand it.

We know and we are willing to try to help you (or at least readers) to understand. Jesus would be proud of our patience.

Evolutionists: A reptile evolved into a bird.

Me: If a reptile evolved into a bird, then why haven't we observed any reptile-to-bird transformations in nature?

I took quite a bit of my personal time, twice now to type out using language, something you should be able to easily understand as to why you can't have what you ask for. I have compared your question to one where I ask for proof that Noah was born in a manger and that Moses rose from the dead, something equally absurd.

I can provide evidence that Old English had small changes within populations of humans over time that eventually became what we now know to be Modern English. I have referenced how Latin changed within differing populations to become what we now understand to be Spanish, Italian etc... depending on where these populations were on this planet. Latin is the common descendent of Spanish and Italian. Changes over time in a region we now call Spain is what led to Latin becoming Spanish and small changes in a population around Italy is how Latin became Italian.

There are estimated to be 70 dead languages (no longer in use) that were influenced by Latin. Latin is the now extinct theropod dinosaur. In some locations, theropod populations (Latin) got more like Spanish and in other areas these populations got to be more like Italian and in others, the populations went extinct.

What did not happen is that Noah was born in a manger or that a Latin speaking person woke up one morning speaking Spanish.

No, you just can't make this stuff up.

This is not made up and should be easily understood, yet you keep asking for nonsense, or like I alluded to already, like asking for evidence that Noah was born in a manger.

The phrase, "you can lead a horse to water" exist for a reason and I argue is being demonstrated here in bounds.

[SiNcE_1985]

Ok, I don't understand it.

We know and we are willing to try to help you (or at least readers) to understand. Jesus would be proud of our patience.

Jesus would be proud of unbelievers in him, pushing a false theory which undermines his word?

Interesting.

I took quite a bit of my personal time, twice now to type out using language, something you should be able to easily understand as to why you can't have what you ask for.


I have compared your question to one where I ask for proof that Noah was born in a manger and that Moses rose from the dead, something equally absurd.

I can provide evidence that Old English had small changes within populations of humans over time that eventually became what we now know to be Modern English. I have referenced how Latin changed within differing populations to become what we now understand to be Spanish, Italian etc... depending on where these populations were on this planet. Latin is the common descendent of Spanish and Italian. Changes over time in a region we now call Spain is what led to Latin becoming Spanish and small changes in a population around Italy is how Latin became Italian.

There are estimated to be 70 dead languages (no longer in use) that were influenced by Latin. Latin is the now extinct theropod dinosaur. In some locations, theropod populations (Latin) got more like Spanish and in other areas these populations got to be more like Italian and in others, the populations went extinct.

In a nut shell, the main idea as to why we don't see these macro level changes in nature is because "not enough time has elapsed. Give it a few hundred million years, and you'll see".

You see, if Mother Nature is the "God" of evolution, then "time" is the holy spirit of Mother Nature.

You can't have evolution without the power of "time".

Have animals copulate, sprinkle a a little hundred million years in there, and viola.

Reptile to bird.

No one living today will ever see it, because we are too late..we missed it by a few hundred million years.

The people living a hundred million years from now will be told the same thing.

"Sorry, buddy. Party's over. You missed it".

No matter where you are on the timeline of existence...you'll always be told..

1. You are too late, you missed it.

2. You are too soon, wait a few hundred million years, and you'll see it.

If you guys can't see the scam, the lie, the fraud in that, then I don't know what to tell you.

What did not happen is that Noah was born in a manger

Who said Noah was born in a manger?

or that a Latin speaking person woke up one morning speaking Spanish.

?

This is not made up and should be easily understood, yet you keep asking for nonsense, or like I alluded to already, like asking for evidence that Noah was born in a manger.

Oh, it is easily understood...it just ain't happen.

The phrase, "you can lead a horse to water" exist for a reason and I argue is being demonstrated here in bounds.

I say the same thing when it comes to getting you guys to accept Christ.

[marke]

I know how you feel. I take a great deal of time to intelligently respond to atheists who have no respect for my views and slander me for posting them.

Consider that it's possible that the views you lay out for them are not respected because they are in fact not intelligent. I'm sorry you have felt slandered though, but do consider the idea that the fault could lay with your posts.

I am open to debate yet am persuaded by better arguments and not just by arguments promoted by one side.


Once again, you failed to address questions posed in what you quoted and that is rude. <--- This is your fault and a fault you continue to do. It is something you can fix though and is totally in your control.
I'll continue to try help you, as that is the Christlike thing to do.

I contribute what I can and when I can, but do not have the luxury to answer every post or every rebuttal from every disgruntled poster who tells me my answers are not acceptable to him.


1) What if there was a God that created life and then the mechanism of evolution?

Bible believers like me know that speculation involves bad assumptions and perverse reasoning.

That would mean that evolution is in fact intelligent and not accidental. Why are you willing to rule out the idea that gods did this?

There is one Creator God who created all living beings after their own kinds.

2) What is your reason for assuming that all powerful beings could not create life and then a process where it changes?

I don't really have time to discuss speculations that can never be proven and that border on myths and wild imaginations.


3) In regards to the nylon eating bacteria (nylon is man made and doesn't exist in nature). Do you believe that your preferred God created this bacteria, or that the earth brought it forth?

God brought forth all original life and science has adequately demonstrated that no life is ever formed by non-life.


4) Did all 400,000 species of beetle evolve from a single male and female that was on a boat just some thousands of years ago, or were the 399,999 created by your preferred way after the fact?

God created beetles with the ability to adapt and change, but not to evolve into Princeton professors.

Now, will you converse with me or will you continue to shout Allahu Akbar in my face or like just above, play the victim in place of answering questions?

The Islamic gods are not real gods at all.

[SiNcE_1985]

Finally, you admit it. Then please go educate yourself and come back when you do understand it.

Ok.

Honestly, the high level ideas are not that difficult to understand. In fact, it's so simple to understand the basic concepts, we can only assume you are purposely pretending to not understand because you don't like where that leads.

It leads to falsehoods, misled youths, wasted tax payers money, and most importantly, a distortion of God's word, and actions.

So, you are correct; I don't like where it leads.

Which means birds are still of the same class as the reptiles they evolved from. This is what you can't seem to grasp.

It's not what I fail to grasp, its what I fail to accept.

Or do you not understand that, just because something is understood, doesn't mean it is accepted, or have to be accepted?

Just like you understand what Christianity is about, you just don't accept it as being true, right?

Same thing.

The idea that reptiles and birds are of the same class; I do not accept this as being true.

I understand this is all part of your theory and narrative...as you have to do all of this unnecessary linking of animals together, because your religion (evolution) is solely dependent upon it.

I get it.

That doesn't means that I have to accept it though.

That is your religion, not mines.

If you lived for millions/billions of years, you could indeed witness that transformation over time. Are you able to live that long?

My point exactly...TIME.

"Given enough time, anything can happen".

I have a time element to my religion, too.

I'll share it with you, since you were kind enough to share yours with me.

"Given enough time, Jesus will return".

See above. Nowhere in the science does it say you can watch millions/billions of years of evolution in one short human lifespan. If you think the science says that, produce the paper/data/evidence.

That's the point, you guys have to come up with some reason as to why those crazy transformations have yet to be observed.

You simply bought the explanation.

I didn't.

It seems that you do make stuff up though. That you can't figure that out is the sad part.

I don't need to make anything up. The theory of evolution and the so called evidence supporting it, is dubious on their own merits.