Application for a Nobel Prize?

[Divine Insight]

Where do I apply for a Nobel Prize?

I just discovered a proof of why no eternal intelligent God can exist.

The proof is actually so simple it's hard to believe that no one saw before me.

Here it is:

Intelligence cannot exist without reliance upon the second law of thermodynamics. Especially if we are defining intelligence as dynamic conscious thought that is capable of memory and making logically reasoned decisions. The ability to do this requires the second law of thermodynamics in order to perform the necessary functions.

Yet if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules. Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal. Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

This proof already exists in known physics. Nothing new needed to be added.

So this is a universal truth I 'discovered' and not something I 'invented'.

Where do I apply for my Nobel Prize?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 46 by Still small]

You obviously don’t have children because, if you did, you would realise that they, for example, are not necessarily evil or ‘stupid’ but that sometimes they make bad choices. As a loving father, you don’t hate the child, only the resulting bad decisions. Punishment, hopefully, is administered, not from anger or a desire to hurt but as correctional to allow them to seek and achieve an overall ‘better life’ or outcome. I don‘t know whether it applies to you but I’ve certainly experienced that feeling of ‘this is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you’ when disciplining a child. In the case of God, it is most certainly true.

All children are apparently born in sin and can't help but sin. So, when they do the wrong thing, no matter how big or small the indiscretion, as a loving father you must threaten to torture them unless they agree to be your slave. If they don't agree the punishment applies forever and rehabilitation is not a consideration.

[benchwarmer]

Moreover, it's actually impossible to take a pure literalist position on the Bible in any case because there is no such thing as "The Bible" anyway. So, in the end, you really have no choice. It's not really open to personal subjective opinion.

What the . . . !!! ‘No such thing as “The Bible� anyway’? Mate, you need to slow down on your medication. Either that or you’ve been using to much ‘loco weed’ or ‘yippie beans’. What kind of ridiculous statement is that, ‘no such thing as “The Bible� anyway’? I’m current looking at about 30 copies (various translation, various languages) of a book in my library called ‘The Bible’. This is a book containing a collection of 66 writings (books) by 40 authors over a period of 1600 years. It’s estimated to have sold* over 6 billion copies. (* sold - though a great quantity are then given away). To deny the existence of the Bible with a statement like ‘there is no such thing as “The Bible� anyway’ reduces your credibility to zero. Sorry, you lost it again.

Perhaps you don't know what quotes mean. DI is quite correct to say "The Bible". Contrary to your limited bible collection, mine has bibles with different number of books in them. Which one is correct? Which one is the real Bible? Clearly YOU have lost this one. I suggest some bible research and an apology to DI.

[William]

[Replying to post 44 by Divine Insight]

When one focuses upon one aspect of someones post and makes an argument from that position, one has created a straw-man DI. If you care to go back to the post I last made and review it in context, perhaps we can resume this discussion without the straw.

[Still small]

Apart from being most discourteous, you have obviously not seen the topic "Whose Bible is THE Bible" in the Christianity and Apologetics and Apologetics forum.

The members would welcome your learned input.

Perhaps you will be the first person of faith to identify for us the objective criteria for determining "scripture".

If I have time, I may venture to have a look.

BTW, as an act of Christian decency and humility (rather than supercilious and vituperative sanctimony) I think you should apologise to DI ... mate.

Otherwise, you will reinforce the opinion certain Atheists have of certain Christians ....

Point noted, therefore, DI, if I have offended you by my comments, I apologise and will endeavour, in future, to extend to you the same level of courtesy and respect which you afford me.

Have a good day!
Still small

[Still small]

So much wrong with all of that.
The penalty is the same no matter what the offense.

True, to God, all sin is sin. It is only man that puts levels of degree of right and wrong. His pronounced penalty - “The wages of sin is death�

The judge hands over a cheque made out to himself.

Every analogy has its limits. But with the payment of death, it wasn’t simply handing over a cheque. There was undeserved personal suffering to be endured.

You don't actually know if the payment has gone through.
The cheque was made out on Friday but cancelled on Sunday.

Untrue. The resurrection on the Sunday was a sign that the payment was accepted and penalty paid in full, as Jesus was no longer “incarcerated in the Lake of Fire until it was paid�.

The judge actually decided the penalty in the first place and made it impossible for anyone to pay.

The Judge assigns the prescribed penalty. This penalty was not impossible to pay, as it was paid and could be paid by any person who was without sin (perfect) as both Adam and Eve were before they chose to disobey God.

The cheque doesn't actually pay for the crime. In the fine print, the judge expects you to be his personal slave for the rest of your life without actually proving that he paid the penalty.

What slavery are you talking about? What can I not do, as Christian, that I could as a non-Christian? Also, anything which I do for or toward God, I do willingly, out of gratitude and thanks for that which He has done for me. There is no compulsion.

In the religious version, the penalty of death was not paid because the victim could not die and in the story did not remain dead. Temporary incapacitation might be a more accurate description of what occurred.

As I explained earlier, the penalty was the death of a perfect person. Jesus Christ gave up His perfect life and subjected himself to death on the cross, possibly the most painful and cruelest form of execution there is. And, as stated earlier, as the payment of the perfect death was made, Jesus was no longer required to be separated from God the Father in the Lake of Fire.

There is no sign of a loving father in this barbaric scenario.

Possibly not in your interpretation/representation of the events but to my understanding, it was a great sacrifice given out of love for me by a loving God which met all the requirements of His Justice.

Have a good day!
Still small

[Divine Insight]

You obviously don’t have children because, if you did, you would realise that they, for example, are not necessarily evil or ‘stupid’ but that sometimes they make bad choices. As a loving father, you don’t hate the child, only the resulting bad decisions. Punishment, hopefully, is administered, not from anger or a desire to hurt but as correctional to allow them to seek and achieve an overall ‘better life’ or outcome. I don‘t know whether it applies to you but I’ve certainly experienced that feeling of ‘this is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you’ when disciplining a child. In the case of God, it is most certainly true.

Let's just focus on your above position for a moment. Because as far as I'm concerned this actually reveals the ignorance of a belief in the Biblical God.

First let's take the above quote apart for a moment to get at the important details.

You obviously don’t have children because, if you did, you would realise that they, for example, are not necessarily evil or ‘stupid’ but that sometimes they make bad choices. As a loving father, you don’t hate the child, only the resulting bad decisions.

First off, I don't need to have children to understand the concepts you mention here.

Secondly I actually purposefully chose not to bring any new humans into this life. Why? Because I, being their creator, could not guarantee their health, safety, or even their mental wellness. This is because I am a mere mortal man and I am neither omnipotent, nor omniscient.

I would like to add as well that I also chose not to bring children into this world for two further reasons.

1. IMHO the world is already over-populated, so I saw no point in bringing more people into an already over-populated planet. (apparently, as a conscientious creator, I'm far wiser than the Biblical God already)

2. IMHO I don't care much for human social constructs. Everything that humans do is based on competition. And this includes everything from education, to job, to even finding a loving mate. From my perspective a truly wise and intelligent society would be based on cooperation rather than on competition.

So there you have it. The three reasons I chose to not create humans:

1. I cannot insure their health and well-being, including their mental health.
2. The world is already over-populated.
3. Human social constructs are based on ignorance, selfishness and greed.

If I were an omnipotent omniscient God I could obviously address all those problems. But apparently if there is an omnipotent omniscient God he doesn't care enough to address them.

Now let's take a look at the second part of your worldview:

As a loving father, you don’t hate the child, only the resulting bad decisions. Punishment, hopefully, is administered, not from anger or a desire to hurt but as correctional to allow them to seek and achieve an overall ‘better life’ or outcome. I don‘t know whether it applies to you but I’ve certainly experienced that feeling of ‘this is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you’ when disciplining a child. In the case of God, it is most certainly true.

As far as I'm concerned the position you have expressed above comes directive from the barbaric ignorance taught by the Bible. IMHO, the very idea that problems of having made poor choices could be constructively of effectively address by delving out punishments is perhaps the single most ignorant and useless idea ever created by mankind.

Punishment doesn't teach a child anything more than that if they can find a way to avoid being punished, then they can apparently get away with doing anything they feel like doing.

In fact I can't even keep track of how many Christians have told me that if there is no God they would see no reasons in being a good person.

What does that tell you? It tells me that if they thought there would be no punishment for their actions they would do anything without a thought about whether or not it might be considered to be "good" or "bad'.

This religion that you are supporting spreads and sustains this kind of extreme ignorance. Anyone who thinks that punishing someone is a constructive way to teach them a lesson has totally lost my respect in terms of having any rational intelligence at all.

Humans typically punish their children for three reasons:

1. The Bible tells them that this is God's preferred method of teaching.
2. They simply don't know any better.
3. Human parents often don't know how to teach constructively or be good mentors.
4. Humans also are not omniscient and have no clue why a child may have done something. I've seen children being punished for simply having a mental condition and being unable to understand things.

The idea that an omnipotent omniscient God would need to punish anyone is a totally insane idea. An omnipotent omniscient God should be able to mentor his children effectively and never have any need to resort to violence, or threats of violence in the form of punishments.

In short Still Small, the God you are supporting, is not only a fictitious man-made fable, but it's not even an intelligent one. It's a God that was created by an extremely ignorant culture who actually believed that punishment was an intelligent way to deal with things. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Punishment as a method of teaching is something that only the most ignorant people should ever need to resort to, and even then this would only be because they aren't smart enough to figure out how utterly ignorant this method of "teaching" truly is.

So as long as you are supporting a God who is so utterly ignorant that the only way he can deal with his problems and the only way he knows how to teach is via violent punishments and threats of violence, then you have nothing to say that would interest me.

The religion you support teaches ignorance and barbarism.

Also, have you ever wondered why nothing the God of the Bible ever did ever actually had any positive outcome?

This God curses Satan to craw on his belly and eat dirt. Yet that didn't slow this evil demon down one bit.

This God cursed Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth. Yet this didn't produce any positive or constructive results either. Women continued to sin the whole rest of the way though the Bible.

This God drowned out the vast majority of sinners on planet earth. And again, it was a totally useless act as according to the Bible mankind is just as bad today as they were at the time of the flood.

The Biblical God is a God who is totally incapable of even solving any problems at all. And this comes directly from the Biblical narrative. Nothing this God has ever done has ever had a positive or constructive effect on humanity. Even in Christianity when this God supposedly has himself born through a virgin woman and brutally crucified by humans fails. According to Jesus himself only FEW humans will make it into the Kingdom of this idiotic God.

And who would truly want to go live with a God who only knows how to punish people and not solve anything?

You are supporting a religion that has an extremely ignorant God who apparently can't even solve the simplest of problems.

You'd be far better off recognizing that this entire religion is nothing more than a very poorly made up collection of ignorant barbaric fables.

In the meantime this ignorant barbaric religion apparently has you thinking that punishing your children is a "divine method of teaching".

Just for that alone I think this religion needs to be tossed aside. It's clearly not a constructive positive religion when all it does is teach people to maintain and support ancient barbaric ignorance.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 54 by Divine Insight]

Also, have you ever wondered why nothing the God of the Bible ever did ever actually had any positive outcome?

What sort of loving parent behaves the way God does? The minute you are tricked into being disobedient he curses you, kicks you out of the house and disappears leaving you on your own to struggle through life. Way to go, God.

[otseng]

Mate, you need to slow down on your medication. Either that or you’ve been using to much ‘loco weed’ or ‘yippie beans’.

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[Still small]

First off, I don't need to have children to understand the concepts you mention here.

Secondly I actually purposefully chose not to bring any new humans into this life. Why? Because I, being their creator, could not guarantee their health, safety, or even their mental wellness. This is because I am a mere mortal man and I am neither omnipotent, nor omniscient.

I would like to add as well that I also chose not to bring children into this world for two further reasons.

1. IMHO the world is already over-populated, so I saw no point in bringing more people into an already over-populated planet. (apparently, as a conscientious creator, I'm far wiser than the Biblical God already)

2. IMHO I don't care much for human social constructs. Everything that humans do is based on competition. And this includes everything from education, to job, to even finding a loving mate. From my perspective a truly wise and intelligent society would be based on cooperation rather than on competition.

So there you have it. The three reasons I chose to not create humans:

1. I cannot insure their health and well-being, including their mental health.
2. The world is already over-populated.
3. Human social constructs are based on ignorance, selfishness and greed.

If I were an omnipotent omniscient God I could obviously address all those problems. But apparently if there is an omnipotent omniscient God he doesn't care enough to address them.

Sorry but I don’t share your pessimistic view of the world. If not having children was indeed purely by a conscious decision on your part, I feel you have missed out on a great many blessings. Also, after reading your point about not being able to “guarantee their health, safety, or even their mental wellness�, it would appear that I have greater confidence in the humanity of mankind. But I did ponder it somewhat and decided to put a question to my older children. “Considering all the ups and downs in your life, the sickness, uncertainty and stress of daily living, etc, would you have preferred that you hadn’t been born at all?� Now, my children have, in no way, had a privileged life, living just as most people currently do. Their responses were all very similar, “Don’t be stupid, dad. Think of all the fantastic experiences I’ve had, the joy of loving and being loved, by my parents, my friends and family, even by Ash (the family dog)� , “Yeah, sometimes it’s been tough, well less than ideal but that is nothing compared to all the fun and great times we’ve had. I wouldn’t give that up for the world.�

Tell me, DI, do wish your parents had decided not to have children? (If your answer is seriously “yes�, I’d rather continue this discussion in a PM)

As for your third point, “3. Human social constructs are based on ignorance, selfishness and greed.�, that may be just a consequence of a ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality. Sounds as if you’re a bit ‘cheesed off’ by the results of ToE and atheism.

Now let's take a look at the second part of your worldview:

As a loving father, you don’t hate the child, only the resulting bad decisions. Punishment, hopefully, is administered, not from anger or a desire to hurt but as correctional to allow them to seek and achieve an overall ‘better life’ or outcome. I don‘t know whether it applies to you but I’ve certainly experienced that feeling of ‘this is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you’ when disciplining a child. In the case of God, it is most certainly true.

As far as I'm concerned the position you have expressed above comes directive from the barbaric ignorance taught by the Bible. IMHO, the very idea that problems of having made poor choices could be constructively of effectively address by delving out punishments is perhaps the single most ignorant and useless idea ever created by mankind.

Punishment doesn't teach a child anything more than that if they can find a way to avoid being punished, then they can apparently get away with doing anything they feel like doing.
In fact I can't even keep track of how many Christians have told me that if there is no God they would see no reasons in being a good person.

What does that tell you? It tells me that if they thought there would be no punishment for their actions they would do anything without a thought about whether or not it might be considered to be "good" or "bad'.

Well, I don’t pretend to speak for all the “many Christians� that have told you this but it is certainly not an attitude or position that I hold to, nor do I teach it to my children. My thinking is, regardless of whether one is likely to be punished for it, it is never right to do wrong and its never wrong to do right. Always doing the right thing regardless of whether anyone knows or not is the basis on integrity. Tell me, you do not believe in a God, what reason do you have, that they don’t, for being a good person (assuming that you are)?

This religion that you are supporting spreads and sustains this kind of extreme ignorance. Anyone who thinks that punishing someone is a constructive way to teach them a lesson has totally lost my respect in terms of having any rational intelligence at all.

Humans typically punish their children for three reasons:

1. The Bible tells them that this is God's preferred method of teaching.
2. They simply don't know any better.
3. Human parents often don't know how to teach constructively or be good mentors.
4. Humans also are not omniscient and have no clue why a child may have done something. I've seen children being punished for simply having a mental condition and being unable to understand things.

The idea that an omnipotent omniscient God would need to punish anyone is a totally insane idea. An omnipotent omniscient God should be able to mentor his children effectively and never have any need to resort to violence, or threats of violence in the form of punishments.

God’s punishment is not directly violent, it is a matter of withholding His benefits and grace. It is clear in Genesis that God had provided for every need of Adam and Eve. They wanted for nothing, food was readily picked as they needed it, there was no fear or danger of attack. Not even the need for hard work and toil. God had only one rule toward which they could exercise their freedom of choice, to obey or disobey. “Don’t eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for if you do, in that day you will surely die� As we know, Adam and Eve didn’t physically drop dead that day, as death here simply means separation, having no interaction. They would be separated from God and all His blessings and benefits. (Physical death is simply a separation of one’s soul from interacting with the physical world via your physical body.) Their decision was not a matter of trial error, everything was laid out before them. They knew the possible consequence of their decision. Choose God and you’ll receive all His blessings, reject God and go it alone, then all the benefits will be withdrawn. All the pain and suffering is a consequence of the hard work and toil. They had a choice of living in Paradise with everything laid on for them or going their own way and receiving only what their hard work and toil produced. The choice is yours and God will not overrule your freedom of choice. What would you choose?

In short Still Small, the God you are supporting, is not only a fictitious man-made fable, but it's not even an intelligent one. It's a God that was created by an extremely ignorant culture who actually believed that punishment was an intelligent way to deal with things. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Punishment as a method of teaching is something that only the most ignorant people should ever need to resort to, and even then this would only be because they aren't smart enough to figure out how utterly ignorant this method of "teaching" truly is.

So as long as you are supporting a God who is so utterly ignorant that the only way he can deal with his problems and the only way he knows how to teach is via violent punishments and threats of violence, then you have nothing to say that would interest me.

The religion you support teaches ignorance and barbarism.

I believe you have, obviously, developed a rather twisted and distorted view to suit your own conscience and agenda. Imagine a parent raising a child that regardless of what the child did, despite what ever attitude the child had, the parent continued to supply everything the child wanted. The child knew that no matter how disrespectful, ungrateful, thankless and disobedient they were, they would continue getting everything from the parent. What do you believe the results would be? What sort of society would that develop?

Also, have you ever wondered why nothing the God of the Bible ever did ever actually had any positive outcome?

This God curses Satan to craw on his belly and eat dirt. Yet that didn't slow this evil demon down one bit.

It was the Serpent that was cursed to crawl on its belly and ‘eat dirt’. Satan’s final sentence, while well known, is yet to be fully carried out.

This God cursed Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth. Yet this didn't produce any positive or constructive results either. Women continued to sin the whole rest of the way though the Bible.

Again, this pain and suffering is a consequence of the separation, not the ‘punishment’ itself.

This God drowned out the vast majority of sinners on planet earth. And again, it was a totally useless act as according to the Bible mankind is just as bad today as they were at the time of the flood.

No, it’s just God clearly showing mankind, that on their own, regardless of how hard they try, their decisions, their choices will always fall short of God’s standard required for the removal of the separation.

The Biblical God is a God who is totally incapable of even solving any problems at all. And this comes directly from the Biblical narrative. Nothing this God has ever done has ever had a positive or constructive effect on humanity. Even in Christianity when this God supposedly has himself born through a virgin woman and brutally crucified by humans fails. According to Jesus himself only FEW humans will make it into the Kingdom of this idiotic God.

Despite your disrespect and denigration, God provided for us, as a free gift, everything He required from us. All we have to do is choose to accept this provision. How simple can it be? Yet, many will choose to reject it believing that they, themselves can meet ‘the price’. And many more will choose to totally reject any acknowledgement of this God and His generous offer or even the need for such redemption. Again, it’s your choice, God will not force you or overrule your decision. Any subsequence consequences are of your own choosing. Choose wisely.

And who would truly want to go live with a God who only knows how to punish people and not solve anything?

You are supporting a religion that has an extremely ignorant God who apparently can't even solve the simplest of problems.

You'd be far better off recognizing that this entire religion is nothing more than a very poorly made up collection of ignorant barbaric fables.

In the meantime this ignorant barbaric religion apparently has you thinking that punishing your children is a "divine method of teaching".

Just for that alone I think this religion needs to be tossed aside. It's clearly not a constructive positive religion when all it does is teach people to maintain and support ancient barbaric ignorance.

Well, all I can say to that is, if you don’t like the universe which God has created for you, even though your’s is a truly twisted perspective, then go and create your own universe to live in.

Have a good day!
Still small

[Divine Insight]

Sorry but I don’t share your pessimistic view of the world. If not having children was indeed purely by a conscious decision on your part, I feel you have missed out on a great many blessings. Also, after reading your point about not being able to “guarantee their health, safety, or even their mental wellness�, it would appear that I have greater confidence in the humanity of mankind.

I wouldn't doubt that you have greater confidence in the humanity of mankind. I never claimed to have a great confidence in the humanity of mankind overall. Moreover, even if humanity as a whole goes on to great heights of achievement, this doesn't change the fact that many individual humans suffer greatly during this process. You need to keep in mind that there is no way that I can guarantee that my children would be among the few humans who happen to have a good life.

But I did ponder it somewhat and decided to put a question to my older children. “Considering all the ups and downs in your life, the sickness, uncertainty and stress of daily living, etc, would you have preferred that you hadn’t been born at all?� Now, my children have, in no way, had a privileged life, living just as most people currently do. Their responses were all very similar, “Don’t be stupid, dad. Think of all the fantastic experiences I’ve had, the joy of loving and being loved, by my parents, my friends and family, even by Ash (the family dog)� , “Yeah, sometimes it’s been tough, well less than ideal but that is nothing compared to all the fun and great times we’ve had. I wouldn’t give that up for the world.�

That's fine and dandy, but you seem to be forgetting that your children may have simply lucked out. You certainly can't take any credit for the fact that nothing horrible ever happened to any of them. So it wasn't like you were able to make them this guarantee before you had them. You took the gamble and, fortunately, for you and your children it worked out to be acceptable.

But this isn't the case for everyone. Have you bothered to pay attention to some of the truly horrific lives that others have lived?

Tell me, DI, do wish your parents had decided not to have children? (If your answer is seriously “yes�, I’d rather continue this discussion in a PM)

It's certainly possible that my life could have turned out in a way where I wish that had been true. Just by PURE ACCIDENT, I was very fortunate to have had a fairly nice life. Not nearly as nice as many other people, but certainly not as bad as many others as well. So we can't really go by whether or not I have enjoyed my life, because because having a good life was PURE ACCIDENT for me. And it certainly isn't a life that my parents could have guaranteed.

And, by the way, if my parents had chosen to not have children I certainly would have never known about it. So not being born is no big deal for the people who are not born.

As for your third point, “3. Human social constructs are based on ignorance, selfishness and greed.�, that may be just a consequence of a ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality. Sounds as if you’re a bit ‘cheesed off’ by the results of ToE and atheism.

Sorry Still Small, that's totally irrelevant. Yes the FACT that ToE is TRUE certainly explains why things are the way they are without anything left unexplained.

But keep in mind that you are taking the side of a "debate" where you are supposed to be supporting a Designer God who actually created this world to be the way it is with intentional purpose.

Also, you seem to be totally obvious to the fact that when I chose not to have children I was STILL a Christian! The fact that my children might end up in this God's HELL, was a part of my decision. Why should I take part in creating "souls" by having children who might end up being cast into HELL by God?

In fact, let's go back to your claim that your children are happen to have lived. But what if after they die they all go to HELL? Then what?

And yes, I'm quite sure that you are confident that none of your children are going to hell. But isn't that kind of confidence a bit presumptuous?

According to Jesus only FEW will make it into eternal life. If that's the case then why in the world would you be so confident that your children are going to be among those FEW?

In fact, if I had been born and brought up as an atheist, I might have made a difference choice and had children after all. At least with atheism I wouldn't need to include the possibility of my children being cast into hell. That removes an eternal thread of horror.

So it's hard to say. If I had been born and raised as an atheist, I might have decided to go ahead and have children. Christianity, with it's God who casts the vast majority of humans into hell is the greatest threat of all. Why should I help such a dastardly God create new souls?

I refuse to be a part of that. Christianity and it's hellish God was part of the equation that caused me to conclude that having children isn't worth the gamble.

Well, I don’t pretend to speak for all the “many Christians� that have told you this but it is certainly not an attitude or position that I hold to, nor do I teach it to my children. My thinking is, regardless of whether one is likely to be punished for it, it is never right to do wrong and its never wrong to do right. Always doing the right thing regardless of whether anyone knows or not is the basis on integrity. Tell me, you do not believe in a God, what reason do you have, that they don’t, for being a good person (assuming that you are)?

Well, I reject Christianity and it's barbaric ignorant God precisely because goodness is clearly important to me. I won't even give a "reason" in terms of intellectual argument, becasue my desire for goodness is an innate part of who I am. In fact, I can't even take responsibility for being who I am.

The fact that I'm a good person who values decency and goodness was itself an obvious luck of the draw. I could have been a horrific criminal who thrives on hurting other people. Apparently some humans are like that.

So the very nature of my personality is a result of pure luck as far as I can see.

Why is it that I have NO DESIRE to rape, pillage, steal, murder, etc?

In fact, this was a topic that came up quite often in our family discussions. Why is it that our family seems to have gotten a "Get out of temptation FREE" card?

This is another reason that Christianity makes no sense to me. It is founded on the idea that all humans lust to sin. How utterly absurd is that?

This is why I can't understand how anyone could even believe in this religion unless they have a desire to do bad things. People who have no desire to do bad things are already in violation of what Christianity demands that they must be like.

Heck I never even had any desire to become rich and famous by working for it legitimately via hard work. Wealth, power, and fame have never been on my list of desires. Sure, I'd like to have enough money to live comfortably. But nothing beyond that. Yet, Christianity seems to be entirely focused on the idea that all humans are totally focused on extreme egotism and greed.

It just doesn't apply to me at all. Nor did it apply to my overall extended family member. We had no criminals in our family. None of my aunts and uncles even had a divorce, or ever cheated on each other insofar as I am aware. And things like that typically get out eventually. So those things just didn't occur in our family. By the way they are all dead now.

God’s punishment is not directly violent, it is a matter of withholding His benefits and grace. It is clear in Genesis that God had provided for every need of Adam and Eve. They wanted for nothing, food was readily picked as they needed it, there was no fear or danger of attack. Not even the need for hard work and toil. God had only one rule toward which they could exercise their freedom of choice, to obey or disobey. “Don’t eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for if you do, in that day you will surely die� As we know, Adam and Eve didn’t physically drop dead that day, as death here simply means separation, having no interaction. They would be separated from God and all His blessings and benefits. (Physical death is simply a separation of one’s soul from interacting with the physical world via your physical body.) Their decision was not a matter of trial error, everything was laid out before them. They knew the possible consequence of their decision. Choose God and you’ll receive all His blessings, reject God and go it alone, then all the benefits will be withdrawn. All the pain and suffering is a consequence of the hard work and toil. They had a choice of living in Paradise with everything laid on for them or going their own way and receiving only what their hard work and toil produced. The choice is yours and God will not overrule your freedom of choice. What would you choose?

I would have chosen to cut the poison tree down and burn it so that no one would ever be tempted to eat from it.

That's what I do if a poison plant is growing in my yard or garden.

Therefore I should be sent straight to heaven with no questions asked. Never mind ancient stories about what Adam and Eve might have done. I'm not responsible for any choices they might have made. Christianity is an ignorant religion. It amazes me how many people will fall for a story that they are somehow responsible for choices that some idiots made some 4 or 6 thousands years ago.

Not only this, but why did this utterly stupid God create someone like Eve as Adam's helpmate? Why not create for him someone like Mother Mary?

Clearly these religious fables that you have fallen for are utterly absurd in so many ways. Why would you think that you should be judged or punished for something some idiots did in a hypothetical Garden of Eden?

Shouldn't the real question be, "What would YOU have done?"

Christianity forces Adam and Eve's choice onto YOU. How disgusting is that?

And why are you buying into it?

I believe you have, obviously, developed a rather twisted and distorted view to suit your own conscience and agenda. Imagine a parent raising a child that regardless of what the child did, despite what ever attitude the child had, the parent continued to supply everything the child wanted. The child knew that no matter how disrespectful, ungrateful, thankless and disobedient they were, they would continue getting everything from the parent. What do you believe the results would be? What sort of society would that develop?

Where did you come up with this absurd idea? It certainly didn't come from me.

Nowhere did I ever suggest that parents should give their children anything they want regardless how they behave. In fact, my position is quite the contrary. I think parents should teach children the value of earning and obtaining everything they want via their own resources.

So I have no clue where you came up with this idea. All I said is that 'punishing' children when they don't behave as you would like is futile and ignorant. In fact, all that teaches the child is that if they can find a way to avoid the punishment then they can apparently get away with doing whatever they like.

So you aren't arguing against my position. Instead you have created a totally incorrect and false idea that has nothing at all to do with me.

It was the Serpent that was cursed to crawl on its belly and ‘eat dirt’. Satan’s final sentence, while well known, is yet to be fully carried out.

Cursing anyone to crawl on the belly and eat dirt is nothing short of pure ignorance and barbarism. If you support this kind of behavior as being intelligent, then all I can say is that your religion has taught you to support ignorant and barbaric behavior as being intelligent behavior.

This is just more reasons to toss this religion in the trash bin. It has otherwise decent people supporting ignorance and barbarism.

This God cursed Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth. Yet this didn't produce any positive or constructive results either. Women continued to sin the whole rest of the way though the Bible.

Again, this pain and suffering is a consequence of the separation, not the ‘punishment’ itself.

That's not at all what the Biblical narrative says. In fact, in this context this is God delving out punishments.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

See, the Biblical narrative says, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception", it doesn't say that because Eve had done this thing God will no longer be able to protect her from various things.

So you are attempting to defend this religious narrative by pretending that it's about something that it's not even about.

This is a curse that God has himself cursed Eve with. That's the Biblical story. If your doing to apologize for these stories at least get the stories right first.

This God drowned out the vast majority of sinners on planet earth. And again, it was a totally useless act as according to the Bible mankind is just as bad today as they were at the time of the flood.

No, it’s just God clearly showing mankind, that on their own, regardless of how hard they try, their decisions, their choices will always fall short of God’s standard required for the removal of the separation.

Again, that's not what the story says. These are false apologies made up by apologists over the centuries who have realized that the stories cannot hold true as written, so they pretend that they are stories about something entirely different.

Despite your disrespect and denigration

Don't give me the disrespect and denigration garbage.

This religion is a false religion created by authoritarian men who demand that you respect the authority of their man-made God. And if you dare to disrespect their garbage religion they will hold that over your head proclaiming that you are disrespecting God himself and refusing to cower down to HIS authority!

This is all hogwash Still Small. There is no God behind this disrespectful barbaric religion. The religion is the thing that is being disrespectful toward you by demanding that if you don't cower down to it's authority you are the one who is guilty of disobeying God.

Don't buy into this nonsense.

..., God provided for us, as a free gift, everything He required from us. All we have to do is choose to accept this provision. How simple can it be? Yet, many will choose to reject it believing that they, themselves can meet ‘the price’. And many more will choose to totally reject any acknowledgement of this God and His generous offer or even the need for such redemption. Again, it’s your choice, God will not force you or overrule your decision. Any subsequence consequences are of your own choosing. Choose wisely.

Again, this is just a religious scam created by uncouth authoritarians who are trying to use an imaginary God to force you to obey their authority.

Why would I reject a GOOD God?

Think about that Still Small.

In fact, I'm not. I'm rejecting an immoral barbaric man-made religion. A religion that was created to get people to cower down to its authority.

This is what make Christianity such a hateful and underhanded religion. It accuses everyone who refuses to cower down to it of supposedly rejecting a GOOD God.

But that itself is a lie Still Small. If there was anything good about the Biblical God it should be readily apparent. We shouldn't need to have centuries of disagreeing apologists making up contradictory apologies for why the God of the Bible doesn't appear to be GOOD.

I'm certainly not rejecting any GOOD God. Moreover, if there really was a GOOD God he, she, it would KNOW that I'm not rejecting Goodness.

Yet Christianity is a false man-made religion that condemns everyone who refuses to support its barbaric ignorance. It's basically a religion of a threat of condemnation that can only be avoided by JOINING and SUPPORTING the religion itself. Anything less is grounds for commendation. Both social condemnation, and character assassination. If you reject Christianity and Christ, then you must be a heathen deserving of commendation by your own FREE WILL CHOICE.

A more hateful religion has never been created by mankind than Christianity. Although Islam is certainly neck-and-neck for first place as being the most hateful religion as well. They are both religions of condemnation toward anyone who doesn't join and support them.

Well, all I can say to that is, if you don’t like the universe which God has created for you, even though your’s is a truly twisted perspective, then go and create your own universe to live in.

A total misunderstanding on your part.

All I'm saying is that if a God purposefully designed this universe, then he cannot be a
GOOD God. Especially if he's out to condemn anyone who doesn't believe that ignorance and barbarism is the most intelligent philosophy to follow.

This religion even has this God purposefully setting up a brutal crucifixion as his CENTERFOLD for salvation. Just think of how utterly sick that truly is Still Small.

IMHO, any truly intelligent God would have come up with a far more intelligent means to communicate with the objects of his creation. In fact, there is absolutely nothing intelligent about devising a plan to have his own corrupt priests call for the brutally crucifixion of his only begotten son as a centerfold of this religion to hold over the heads of humans.

I don't think I could even come up with a more disgusting religious novel if I tried.

Why should I believe that a GOOD God would be such an ignorant barbaric idiot as Christianity demands?

Even I, as a mere mortal human can think of countless better ways to deal with trying to raise pet humans to admire and worship me and strive to do what's wright.

Christianity is really all about the barbaric threat of damnation, and really has little or nothing to say about how to truly live a decent life.

Of sure, Jesus preached some pretty low-level common-sense ideas that any decent person should have been able to come up with on their own. But that hardly constitutes intelligent mentoring. Even Jesus continued to support ignorance and barbarism in many ways. And he didn't even know about biology?

It's clearly a religion created by ignorant men.

So don't be telling me that there's a God who gives us everything we need. There's simply no evidence to support that superstitious claim.

Even the New Testament has Jesus making promises and predictions that clearly are not true. So there's nothing here even worth talking about really.

This religion should have died centuries ago.

The fact that people are still arguing for it today only confirms ToE and that humans are nothing more than highly evolved primates who are still having difficulty being able to see through obviously false superstitious religious nonsense.