Application for a Nobel Prize?

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Application for a Nobel Prize?

Post #1

Post by Divine Insight »

Where do I apply for a Nobel Prize?

I just discovered a proof of why no eternal intelligent God can exist.

The proof is actually so simple it's hard to believe that no one saw before me.

Here it is:

Intelligence cannot exist without reliance upon the second law of thermodynamics. Especially if we are defining intelligence as dynamic conscious thought that is capable of memory and making logically reasoned decisions. The ability to do this requires the second law of thermodynamics in order to perform the necessary functions.

Yet if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules. Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal. Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

This proof already exists in known physics. Nothing new needed to be added.

So this is a universal truth I 'discovered' and not something I 'invented'.

Where do I apply for my Nobel Prize? :D
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Post #61

Post by Divine Insight »

Still small wrote: What the . . . !!! ‘No such thing as “The Bible� anyway’? Mate, you need to slow down on your medication. Either that or you’ve been using to much ‘loco weed’ or ‘yippie beans’. What kind of ridiculous statement is that, ‘no such thing as “The Bible� anyway’? I’m current looking at about 30 copies (various translation, various languages) of a book in my library called ‘The Bible’. This is a book containing a collection of 66 writings (books) by 40 authors over a period of 1600 years. It’s estimated to have sold* over 6 billion copies. (* sold - though a great quantity are then given away). To deny the existence of the Bible with a statement like ‘there is no such thing as “The Bible� anyway’ reduces your credibility to zero. Sorry, you lost it again.
Sorry but you just confirmed my position.

30 copies of "various translations"?

That's the problem right there. No one can even agree on which versions got the translations correct. In fact, 99% of apologetics often has to do with the excuse that the Bible was indeed translated incorrectly and doesn't even mean what it currently says.

The problem is that none of those apologies hold any water because no apologist has yet been able to produce "The Bible" which doesn't contain any errors or mistranslated material.

So according to Christian apologists there is no such thing as "The Bible". All that exists are people who make a lifetime career out of making apologies for why the current copies that the call "The Bible" don't actually say what they mean or mean what they say.

Think of how ridiculous this truly is. You are defending a religion that doesn't even actually exist in any well-defined form. :D

Even Christian apologists passionately disagree with each other's apologies. Why do you think Christianity exists as a bunch of vehemently disagreeing factions? Even they can't point to anything concrete.
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Post #62

Post by Still small »

To avoid putting up another extremely long post, I’d like to make general point in reply to your post as a whole, then address some specifics.

In general, your post appears to be a summary of your discontentment with your life, seeing nothing but pessimistic views and focusing only on the negative aspects. In fact, from the tone of your post it would seem that you are angry with God. Whereas I’m extremely thankful for the life I have lived and for those who have crossed my path. I have not achieved greatness nor renown. But I have been loved by many and, in returned, loved many. I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination but I have all that I could want and far more than I deserve. I am privileged to be part of a large ‘loving family’ that neither judges nor condemns me but supports and assists me whenever I fall which, sadly, is quite often. This ‘loving family’ is centred around a mutual love for One who gave everything for me. Though you claim to have ‘been a Christian’, it appears that you, sadly, did not experience this same acceptance and support. Regardless of whether it be your pessimistic outlook and experience or my thankful blessed journey, both are personal experiences which really have nothing to do with a ‘Science and Religion’ forum and possibly better suited to another. As personal experiences, nothing from your negativity will change that which I have experienced. And, visa versa, nothing of mine appears to challenge yours. All I have to offer then is the confidence that God will provide everything needed to show His love for you but it will be up to you to accept it. Again, He will not force you nor go against your free-will choice. My prayer for you will be that you will have an openness of heart and mind to truly consider the offer before finally rejecting it.

Now to some specifics -
Still small wrote: Tell me, DI, do wish your parents had decided not to have children? (If your answer is seriously “yes�, I’d rather continue this discussion in a PM)
It's certainly possible that my life could have turned out in a way where I wish that had been true. Just by PURE ACCIDENT, I was very fortunate to have had a fairly nice life. Not nearly as nice as many other people, but certainly not as bad as many others as well. So we can't really go by whether or not I have enjoyed my life, because because having a good life was PURE ACCIDENT for me. And it certainly isn't a life that my parents could have guaranteed. (Emphasis added)
These statements give me the impression that you are fatalist, having no choice in what happens to you, having no freedom to choose which path in life you wish to follow. ‘Pure luck’ has nothing to do with it unless it was pure luck as to which choice you made at various points in your life. The path of life has many forks and crossroads. Where you end up is dependent upon which choices you have made. If you are not happy with the results of your decisions, you only have yourself to blame. Where you are now is the result of past decisions, where you go from here will depend upon your future decisions.
Also, you seem to be totally obvious to the fact that when I chose not to have children I was STILL a Christian! The fact that my children might end up in this God's HELL, was a part of my decision. Why should I take part in creating "souls" by having children who might end up being cast into HELL by God? :-k

In fact, let's go back to your claim that your children are happen to have lived. But what if after they die they all go to HELL? Then what? :-k

And yes, I'm quite sure that you are confident that none of your children are going to hell. But isn't that kind of confidence a bit presumptuous? :-k
Yes, I am confident that my children will not be in hell. I have guided and instructed them on the way to avoid it. But to actually do so was their decision and theirs alone.
According to Jesus only FEW will make it into eternal life. If that's the case then why in the world would you be so confident that your children are going to be among those FEW?
The particular verse I believe you are referring to is Matthew 7:14  “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.� This passage is not a limiting passage. There is no restriction on the number to enter Heaven. It is just that few will choose that narrow (strait) gate. Another verse says quite clearly - John 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.�
That “whosoever� is not restrictive. It is only conditional by the path or choice made, to believe or not believe. Not doing good deeds or going to church or any other “works� but just believing that what He has done is sufficient. Couldn’t get any easier.
Yet, Christianity seems to be entirely focused on the idea that all humans are totally focused on extreme egotism and greed.
I think this may be a slight exaggeration on your part, possibly due to your thought processes spurred by anger.
I would have chosen to cut the poison tree down and burn it so that no one would ever be tempted to eat from it. :D

That's what I do if a poison plant is growing in my yard or garden.
The neither the tree nor its fruit were poison. It was the resulting decisions that were ‘poisonous’.
Therefore I should be sent straight to heaven with no questions asked. Never mind ancient stories about what Adam and Eve might have done. I'm not responsible for any choices they might have made. Christianity is an ignorant religion. It amazes me how many people will fall for a story that they are somehow responsible for choices that some idiots made some 4 or 6 thousands years ago. (Emphasis added)
You are correct, you should not and will not be held responsible for the choice of Adam and Eve. The only choices to which you will be held accountable are your own.
Shouldn't the real question be, "What would YOU have done?"
Exactly, what would I have done? Well, I may not have eaten from that tree but being human, not doubt I would have made a selfish choice at some point. Romans 3:23  “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;�. I am no angel, I have made my fair share of stuff ups in my life, hence the reason God knew He’d have to come up with the payment, which He willingly and lovingly provides.
Where did you come up with this absurd idea? It certainly didn't come from me.

Nowhere did I ever suggest that parents should give their children anything they want regardless how they behave. In fact, my position is quite the contrary. I think parents should teach children the value of earning and obtaining everything they want via their own resources.
And what if the child is too lazy to do things for himself or would rather do it his way rather than the right way?
Still small wrote:
This God drowned out the vast majority of sinners on planet earth. And again, it was a totally useless act as according to the Bible mankind is just as bad today as they were at the time of the flood.
No, it’s just God clearly showing mankind, that on their own, regardless of how hard they try, their decisions, their choices will always fall short of God’s standard required for the removal of the separation.
Again, that's not what the story says. These are false apologies made up by apologists over the centuries who have realized that the stories cannot hold true as written, so they pretend that they are stories about something entirely different.
It is no different to a surgeon making a decision to amputate a limb which is gangrenous to enable a person to continue living. Or do you consider that to be ‘absurd’, ‘ignorant’ and ‘barbaric’?
This religion is a false religion created by authoritarian men who demand that you respect the authority of their man-made God. And if you dare to disrespect their garbage religion they will hold that over your head proclaiming that you are disrespecting God himself and refusing to cower down to HIS authority!
Don’t know which church or sect you were apart of when you were supposedly ‘a Christian’ but I answer or bow down to no man nor their rules. I answer to God and God alone. I base my life upon Jesus Christ’s summation of the ten commandment, Mark 12:30-31 “(30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.�
And when I fall short, I ask God to forgive me and give me the strength, will and understanding to continue. How would following these two simple ‘rules’ be bad for society?
Yet Christianity is a false man-made religion that condemns everyone who refuses to support its barbaric ignorance. It's basically a religion of a threat of condemnation that can only be avoided by JOINING and SUPPORTING the religion itself.
The only way to avoid the condemnation of which you speak is by freely accepting what Someone else has done for you. That’s it. End of story. Joining a religion, performing all kinds of rituals, etc, does nothing for avoiding it. Nah nah, zilch, zip. Nor does it state you MUST do these things. In fact, that is probably a clear point against the idea of the Christian faith being man-made. (Faith as opposed to religion - faith is a set of beliefs, religion is a set of rules and, yes, usually man-made. I hold to the Christian faith, not a religion.) Yes, if the Christian faith was man-made, it would, no doubt, contain all sorts of conditions, works to perform and dues to pay. The Christian faith requires nothing more than believing and accepting what Someone else has already done for you.
So don't be telling me that there's a God who gives us everything we need. There's simply no evidence to support that superstitious claim.
Well, that was His original offer but it was rejected by those who wanted to go it alone. But He has promised to restore the original offer for any who want it.

Well, it turned out to be a rather long reply anyway but as stated earlier, we are both relating personal experiences which cannot be nor should be part of a Science forum. Maybe we should just agree to disagree until the ‘final moment’, then we’ll compare notes.

Have a good day!
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Post #63

Post by Still small »

Divine Insight wrote:
Sorry but you just confirmed my position.

30 copies of "various translations"?

That's the problem right there. No one can even agree on which versions got the translations correct. In fact, 99% of apologetics often has to do with the excuse that the Bible was indeed translated incorrectly and doesn't even mean what it currently says.
Well, sorry to disappoint you but there is true version which is not a translation. It is just that my comprehension of English is better than my comprehension of Hebrew, Chaldean and Greek, hence the reason I choose an English translation but I usually compare it to the original languages for clarity.

Have a good day!
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Post #64

Post by Divine Insight »

Still small wrote: Don’t know which church or sect you were apart of when you were supposedly ‘a Christian’ but I answer or bow down to no man nor their rules. I answer to God and God alone. I base my life upon Jesus Christ’s summation of the ten commandment, Mark 12:30-31 “(30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.�
And when I fall short, I ask God to forgive me and give me the strength, will and understanding to continue. How would following these two simple ‘rules’ be bad for society?
It's still just an imaginary God.

Also, you love your neighbor as yourself because you are following rules? :-k

That's quite sad isn't it when you consider that many atheists, including myself, love our neighbors as ourselves because it's who we naturally are. Not because some imaginary God told us that if we don't do this he'll be ticked-off with us.

It appears to me that your problem stems from thinking that because you believe in this religion and supposedly do what it demands of you that this somehow makes you better than a non-believer. But the fact is that it doesn't. In fact, if the only reason you are behaving in this way is because you think that some God told you that you had better do this or be damned, then that's actually quite sad, and even insincere, don't you think?

It would seem to me that if there was a God who wanted people to love each other and he saw non-believers loving each other simply because this is who they are, instead of doing it because they thought that some God commanded them to do it, he would surely be far happier with the non-believers.

You don't need to believe in a God to love your fellow man.

Or do you? :-k
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Post #65

Post by Still small »

Divine Insight wrote:It's still just an imaginary God.
Just as imaginary as dark matter and dark energy, I suppose.
Also, you love your neighbor as yourself because you are following rules? :-k

That's quite sad isn't it when you consider that many atheists, including myself, love our neighbors as ourselves because it's who we naturally are. Not because some imaginary God told us that if we don't do this he'll be ticked-off with us.
No, you appear to have missed the whole point of those two verses (Mark 12:30-31) but don’t worry, most people do. If you look at them, one verse at a time you’ll hopefully understand. Mark 12:30 “And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.� This I do, not because I am commanded to do it but out of thanks and gratefulness for the amazing love He has shown to me by the provision of the payment, freely given. I cannot imagine someone who has a true realisation of the enormity of this gift who could not be thankful and loving toward Him. I feel it is a natural response. But you will notice that in that verse the word “all� is used four times. It is the Greek word “ὅλος� (holos) meaning ‘complete’, ‘every part’, ‘all’. If I love God with “all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength�, I love Him with everything I have, 100%. Then in vs:31, I’m told I’m to “love thy neighbour as thyself�. Now, if I’m loving God with every part, every fibre of my being, 100%, I have nothing left with which to love my neighbour. Therefore, if God has ‘commanded’ me to do so, He must, therefore, supply the means by which this can be done. He must love them through me or via me. I cannot do it as I have nothing left. I just allow Him to love them through me, Which He does. Even the most ‘unlovable’ I can love if I let Him do it through me. Even when they ridicule me and mock me and make fun of the God I love, I can still love them and pray for them as I allow Him to do so through me. It is not a ‘command’ which I must do or He’ll be ticked off with me, it just becomes natural, part of my nature. Not because I want something or owe something, I just allow it to happen.
It appears to me that your problem stems from thinking that because you believe in this religion and supposedly do what it demands of you that this somehow makes you better than a non-believer.
No it doesn’t. I’m just as bad if not worse than a non-believer. The only difference is that I, as a Christian, admit it and then receive forgiveness.
But the fact is that it doesn't. (I just said that) In fact, if the only reason you are behaving in this way is because you think that some God told you that you had better do this or be damned, then that's actually quite sad, and even insincere, don't you think?
Yes, it would be quite sad but as I just explained, it is not the case. Well, not with me, anyway.
It would seem to me that if there was a God who wanted people to love each other and he saw non-believers loving each other simply because this is who they are, instead of doing it because they thought that some God commanded them to do it, he would surely be far happier with the non-believers.
I’m sure He must be pleased when He sees anyone of us loving (unconditionally) another but just obeying it as a command (being a condition) or any command for that matter, is not what keeps one from being damned. One thing and one thing only gets us damned, that being the rejection of the gift He offers that He requires as payment for our failings.
You don't need to believe in a God to love your fellow man.

Or do you? :-k
No, you don’t. But you do need to accept His gift to avoid getting what you deserve.

So, from your post, it would appear that you have misunderstood or are attempting to make a ‘straw man’ as to our position and the motives of Christians.

Have a good day! (and I truly mean that, always)

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Post #66

Post by EarthScienceguy »

That was a nice definition of the second law of thermodynamics.

And you would be correct if God were also not omnipotent.

Either God or something else has to be omnipotent no matter what you believe. There is something that has to be eternal for our universe to exist as an actual physical place.

So you must BELIEVE in something that is eternal and something that is omnipotent.
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Post #67

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: So you must BELIEVE in something that is eternal and something that is omnipotent.
I have no evidence that anything is eternal or omnipotent. But I do have evidence that anything that is eternal cannot be intelligent. Not only this, but I actually understand how this works because I understand entropy. :D

Most theists do not understand entropy at all because they think that entropy says that nothing can ever increase in complexity. But that's not at all what entropy has to say. To the contrary, entropy is actually what thermodynamically allows for complexity to arise within the universe. But then the universe cannot last forever. It must then come to an end. It could then recycle and start the whole process all over again from scratch. That's certainly possible. But no information could pass through that recycling stage.

So whatever it is that is recycling cannot itself be intelligent. It can only briefly evolve into intelligent beings like us periodically. If you want to call that "God" then so be it. In fact, this is a picture of "God" that many pantheists actually believe in.

But this wouldn't be the Zeus-type of God that the Judaeo-Christians believe in. The Zeus-type of God that the Christians believe in cannot exist. At least not eternally. And it's highly unlikely that it only exists periodically.

So pantheism is most likely the correct picture of "God", but it's probably a misnomer to call it "God" when we can more correctly just call it "The Universe".
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Post #68

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I have no evidence that anything is eternal or omnipotent.


Only people who do not understand cosmology say things like "there is no evidence of anything that is eternal and omnipotent" This is not any type of theist argument, atheist cosmologies believe in some sort of eternal universe. They may not say that the eternal universe is omnipotent, but they do describe a universe that does not run down because the arrow of time can flow in both directions, towards higher entropy and towards lower entropy. This cause this mother universe to never lose energy. But the idea of expending energy and never having an energy decrease is the definition of something being omnipotent.
Most theists do not understand entropy at all because they think that entropy says that nothing can ever increase in complexity. But that's not at all what entropy has to say. To the contrary, entropy is actually what thermodynamically allows for complexity to arise within the universe. But then the universe cannot last forever. It must then come to an end. It could then recycle and start the whole process all over again from scratch. That's certainly possible. But no information could pass through that recycling stage.
I find that most people also do not understand cosmology. Because your "recycling" theory was discarded long ago by cosmologist because of the entropy problem with cyclic universe. I have looked at one fringe theory of a cyclic universe, but it is not really getting much traction within the physics community.

Another problem of people not understanding cosmology is that they do understand that there has to be something outside of the universe that we experience. All major theories that are getting traction in the physics community all have some thing existing outside or our physical universe. So to say that all of reality is bottle up inside this structure we call the universe is to really not understand the scope of the problems that cosmologist are dealing with.

So whatever it is that is recycling cannot itself be intelligent. It can only briefly evolve into intelligent beings like us periodically. If you want to call that "God" then so be it. In fact, this is a picture of "God" that many pantheists actually believe in.

But this wouldn't be the Zeus-type of God that the Judaeo-Christians believe in. The Zeus-type of God that the Christians believe in cannot exist. At least not eternally. And it's highly unlikely that it only exists periodically.

So pantheism is most likely the correct picture of "God", but it's probably a misnomer to call it "God" when we can more correctly just call it "The Universe".
There is a popular theory out there right now that says that our universe is nothing more than a computer game by a highly advanced civilization. But as you stated a cyclic universe is an impossibility because of entropy.

So some sort of pantheistic being contained inside this universe is also not a solution to the origin of this universe.

(Describing this in our frame of reference.) Whatever it was that created the this universe has to exist outside of this universe, exactly because of this reason you are putting forward.

Something existing outside our universe opens up a whole new range of possibilities which would not be possible in this universe. Because the ideas of space, matter, energy, laws of nature, the arrow of time, only have meaning in this universe. So anything operating outside of this universe would not be subject to the laws of this universe. But anything inside this universe is subject to the laws in this universe. So everyone is subject to the laws of God whether you want to or not.
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Post #69

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Something existing outside our universe opens up a whole new range of possibilities which would not be possible in this universe. Because the ideas of space, matter, energy, laws of nature, the arrow of time, only have meaning in this universe. So anything operating outside of this universe would not be subject to the laws of this universe. But anything inside this universe is subject to the laws in this universe. So everyone is subject to the laws of God whether you want to or not.
This is nothing more than gross speculation on your part that has absolutely no evidence to back it up. Yet you claim that it must be true whether I want it to be true or not. :roll:

Moreover, I'm willing to bet that your major incentive for making this speculation is that you feel that an already intelligent being must exist in order to explain how intelligence can exist without our universe. That very thinking is illogical. If you need to have an intelligent creator in order to explain anything that is intelligent then you need to apply this to your God as well. But clearly you don't. You allow your God the ridiculous privilege of being an intelligent being that was not created by an intelligent being.

Your entire line of thinking is terribly flawed.

It makes far more sense that intelligence simply emerged from non-intelligence. Not only this but this has actually been shown to be possible. It not only possible but it was even demonstrated to be true via a very simple computer program written by John Conway.

Simple rules naturally give rise to more complex behavior. And those original rule do not need to be intelligent. Even John Conway, the programmer, had absolutely no idea what his program would do until after he ran it and saw what it did.

So your continued claim that there need to be some higher intelligence that purposefully created the universe is simply wrong. There is no need to jump to that conclusion, especially when actual evidence shows otherwise.

And like I say, your entire argument that intelligence is required to design intelligent behavior fails miserably anyway, because you would then need to apply that same restriction to your God. You can hardly have your supposedly intelligent God just existing without having been designed by a higher intelligence because that's basically the crux of your argument. Anything that is complex must have been designed by something even more complex. Apply that to your God and then there must be an even more complex God who created your God.

So your line of thinking simply isn't logical, and is totally unnecessary. A very simple substrate of extremely simple laws is all that is required for complexity and intelligence to arise. And there is no need for that simple substrate to have any sentience of intelligence of its own.

So your arguments fail. They simply aren't based on sound reasoning. You are postulating the existence of an intelligent God where no intelligent God is required.

Not only this but you are ignoring the fact that if you feel that you need to postulate an intelligent creator to create the universe, then you're stuck with necessarily then needing an intelligent creator to create your intelligent creator.

So you "solution" to the problem becomes an infinite regression of intelligent creators creating intelligent creators.
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Post #70

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Divine Insight]
This is nothing more than gross speculation on your part that has absolutely no evidence to back it up. Yet you claim that it must be true whether I want it to be true or not.
Sean Carroll an atheist cosmologist wrote a book on this very subject of an eternal universe and the arrow of time called "From Eternity to here". This would help in making a coherent argument with a modern concept of cosmology. And he would even help your entropy argument because he believes that life is a result of entropy.

You can buy it here. But remember to tell them who sent you.


Moreover, I'm willing to bet that your major incentive for making this speculation is that you feel that an already intelligent being must exist in order to explain how intelligence can exist without our universe. That very thinking is illogical. If you need to have an intelligent creator in order to explain anything that is intelligent then you need to apply this to your God as well. But clearly you don't. You allow your God the ridiculous privilege of being an intelligent being that was not created by an intelligent being.

Your entire line of thinking is terribly flawed.
No, the argument is that there is something that has to be eternal. Whether it be an eternal universe or God there has to be something that is eternal to give us the universe that we perceive that we exist in.

Using Carroll's description of an eternal universe, not only would God have to be enteral time would also have not meaning. He would also be omnipresent at every point along the timeline. So this would mean that in God's frame of reference the entire timeline would occur at the same instant. Past, present and future all existing at the same time. Just as Einsteins equations say they should. Atheist Cosmologist Brian Green describes this in his book "Fabric of the cosmos".

It can also be found here.



It makes far more sense that intelligence simply emerged from non-intelligence. Not only this but this has actually been shown to be possible. It not only possible but it was even demonstrated to be true via a very simple computer program written by John Conway.

Simple rules naturally give rise to more complex behavior. And those original rule do not need to be intelligent. Even John Conway, the programmer, had absolutely no idea what his program would do until after he ran it and saw what it did.

So your continued claim that there need to be some higher intelligence that purposefully created the universe is simply wrong. There is no need to jump to that conclusion, especially when actual evidence shows otherwise.
I made no argument about intelligence at all. But Jonny's program does have a fatal flaw. Because the catalyst that has caused all of these problems with the big bang theory are the fundamental constants and laws of nature. There is no reason why the constants have to be the values that they have. And there is no reason why the laws of nature have to be what they are.

Brian Greene outlines this in one of his older books called "The Elegant Universe" which you can find here.



And like I say, your entire argument that intelligence is required to design intelligent behavior fails miserably anyway, because you would then need to apply that same restriction to your God. You can hardly have your supposedly intelligent God just existing without having been designed by a higher intelligence because that's basically the crux of your argument. Anything that is complex must have been designed by something even more complex. Apply that to your God and then there must be an even more complex God who created your God.
You made the intelligence argument. I was simply describing how the characteristics that whatever created the universe had to have. Life and intelligence is a biological argument not a cosmological argument.



So your line of thinking simply isn't logical, and is totally unnecessary. A very simple substrate of extremely simple laws is all that is required for complexity and intelligence to arise. And there is no need for that simple substrate to have any sentience of intelligence of its own.

So your arguments fail. They simply aren't based on sound reasoning. You are postulating the existence of an intelligent God where no intelligent God is required.

Not only this but you are ignoring the fact that if you feel that you need to postulate an intelligent creator to create the universe, then you're stuck with necessarily then needing an intelligent creator to create your intelligent creator.

So you "solution" to the problem becomes an infinite regression of intelligent creators creating intelligent creators.

No, whatever it was the created the this wonderful universe that we do had to be eternal.
When atheists are clearly answered and they run away because they have lost, then they claim they were never answered, are they liars?
by AquinasForGod

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