The meaning of evidence

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Sherlock Holmes

The meaning of evidence

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This thread is to discuss the meaning of the term "evidence" particularly with respect to claims made by evolution advocates.

The reason I started this thread is that I often see - what I regard as - a conflation of consistent with and evidence for. If we are to make reasonable inferences and maintain objectivity and avoid making assumption unwittingly then the more precisely we define "evidence" the better I think.

The biggest risk here is to imply that some observation P is evidence for X and only X, rather than evidence for X and Y or Z. Unless we are on our guard we can informally exclude reasonable possibilities Y and Z and so on. Now the observation P might well be evidence for X and only X, but unless that is soundly established we simply can't assume that.

If we mistakenly regard P as evidence for X and only X then we fall into the trap of believing that P can only be observed if X was the cause.

This is exemplified by an analogy I recently put together that I think warrants its own thread, so here it is:


Consider this jigsaw

Image


None of the circles overlap, we can see this when we can see the totality of the jigsaw. But if we already believed for some reason or other, that they must overlap and we only had twenty random pieces and never see the rest, we could make up a jigsaw (theory) where we "fill in the blanks" so to speak and "show" that we sometimes have overlapping circles.

We'd be absolutely right too in saying the twenty pieces were consistent with an image that has overlapping circles, but we'd be dead wrong to say the twenty pieces are evidence of overlapping circles, because as we know, none of the circles actually do overlap.

So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #71

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:58 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:40 pm You're overlooking genetic engineering:
Wikipedia wrote:Genetic engineering, also called genetic modification or genetic manipulation, is the direct manipulation of an organism's genes using biotechnology. It is a set of technologies used to change the genetic makeup of cells, including the transfer of genes within and across species boundaries to produce improved or novel organisms.
See? no common ancestry there.
Except, as that excerpt describes, genetic engineering involves the transfer of functional sequences, whereas the genetic testing that is used to establish relatedness relies on comparison of genetic errors.

Also, genetic engineering is something human beings do and humans have only existed for the last ~250,000-300,000 years, while life has existed on earth for ~4 billion years.
In the narrow sense that changes take place to the genome yes I agree, but the broader more expansive claims that the same process can and did lead to huge diversity and macroscopic changes isn't really observable given that this requires huge timeframes.
As I showed by posting multiple examples of observed speciation events, we know that evolution occurs to the point where it generates new species. Thus when we look at the fossil record and see the appearance of new species, it's rational to infer that they too came about via evolution.

It's no different than geologists inferring that specific ash layers they uncover were produced by volcanic eruptions, just as they see volcanoes today produce the same types of ash layers.

And yes, I'm fully aware that your position is that uniformitarianism is an unwarranted and erroneous framework in the earth and life sciences. I'm also aware that you do not have a better alternative, nor are you interested in developing one and demonstrating its superiority. So once again.....so noted.
Well I never said that "uniformitarianism is an unwarranted and erroneous framework in the earth and life sciences" I said something very different, that the argument the earth being billions of years old rests upon the assumption of uniformitarianism and that it is a very reasonable assumption, here, read it yourself, this is what I said on Feb 13:
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:18 pm That assumption is called uniformitarianism and it is an assumption, quite reasonable but totally assumed.

If we choose to NOT assume uniformitarianism then we can say that around 6,000 years ago the earth was created by God and the laws of nature were created by God, they did not exist until this time. The laws allow the future state to follow the current state and follow nice smooth mathematical rules. So from the instant the earth was created the laws began to operate but to assume they always operated that way and the the earth is very very old is wrong.
If you're going to be making mistakes like this then surely you can see it will be a challenge for me to discuss things with you?

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #72

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:11 pm During the Cambrian some 30+ phyla appeared for the first time, clearly these are all sufficiently distinct from each other to be classified as phyla, so what fossil evidence is there these shared common ancestry?
Earlier, Barbarian attempted to begin discussing that evidence with you. If you're genuinely interested I suggest you restart that discussion with him.
each phylum - in principle - represents the end of some branch and these branches (30+ branches) must meet at some point in the past, some ancestor or other. There's no fossil evidence of this to my knowledge, there's no fossil evidence showing gradual ever so small changes between any two forms that eventually culminates in some common ancestor.
Are you expecting complete fossil records for pre-Cambrian/Cambrian-era taxa?
Right and until you can resolve it, it remains unresolved, as for example Tegmark and Penrose for example.
Except here we don't have anything to resolve. All we have is an interpretation from paleontologists and evolutionary biologists and you saying that you disagree with it, as you explain.....
Well I do think the fossil record with respect to the Cambrian is so punctuated that one is justified in questioning if the diverse phyla really are the result of evolution, that's my position.
....and again....
Well of course my position won't match that of evolutionary biologists!
So is there anything more to discuss beyond the fact that you disagree?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #73

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:14 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:58 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:40 pm You're overlooking genetic engineering:
Wikipedia wrote:Genetic engineering, also called genetic modification or genetic manipulation, is the direct manipulation of an organism's genes using biotechnology. It is a set of technologies used to change the genetic makeup of cells, including the transfer of genes within and across species boundaries to produce improved or novel organisms.
See? no common ancestry there.
Except, as that excerpt describes, genetic engineering involves the transfer of functional sequences, whereas the genetic testing that is used to establish relatedness relies on comparison of genetic errors.

Also, genetic engineering is something human beings do and humans have only existed for the last ~250,000-300,000 years, while life has existed on earth for ~4 billion years.
In the narrow sense that changes take place to the genome yes I agree, but the broader more expansive claims that the same process can and did lead to huge diversity and macroscopic changes isn't really observable given that this requires huge timeframes.
As I showed by posting multiple examples of observed speciation events, we know that evolution occurs to the point where it generates new species. Thus when we look at the fossil record and see the appearance of new species, it's rational to infer that they too came about via evolution.

It's no different than geologists inferring that specific ash layers they uncover were produced by volcanic eruptions, just as they see volcanoes today produce the same types of ash layers.

And yes, I'm fully aware that your position is that uniformitarianism is an unwarranted and erroneous framework in the earth and life sciences. I'm also aware that you do not have a better alternative, nor are you interested in developing one and demonstrating its superiority. So once again.....so noted.
Well I never said that "uniformitarianism is an unwarranted and erroneous framework in the earth and life sciences" I said something very different, that the argument the earth being billions of years old rests upon the assumption of uniformitarianism and that it is a very reasonable assumption, here, read it yourself, this is what I said on Feb 13:
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:18 pm That assumption is called uniformitarianism and it is an assumption, quite reasonable but totally assumed.

If we choose to NOT assume uniformitarianism then we can say that around 6,000 years ago the earth was created by God and the laws of nature were created by God, they did not exist until this time. The laws allow the future state to follow the current state and follow nice smooth mathematical rules. So from the instant the earth was created the laws began to operate but to assume they always operated that way and the the earth is very very old is wrong.
If you're going to be making mistakes like this then surely you can see it will be a challenge for me to discuss things with you?
Thanks for clarifying. So if you agree that uniformitarianism is a reasonable assumption, then one would think you would also agree that when we see species appear in the fossil record it's reasonable to assume that they arose via evolution, as we observe today.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #74

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:11 pm During the Cambrian some 30+ phyla appeared for the first time, clearly these are all sufficiently distinct from each other to be classified as phyla, so what fossil evidence is there these shared common ancestry?
Earlier, Barbarian attempted to begin discussing that evidence with you. If you're genuinely interested I suggest you restart that discussion with him.
The same goes for me, if you're genuinely interested in discussing the absence of fossil evidence just reach out.
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm
each phylum - in principle - represents the end of some branch and these branches (30+ branches) must meet at some point in the past, some ancestor or other. There's no fossil evidence of this to my knowledge, there's no fossil evidence showing gradual ever so small changes between any two forms that eventually culminates in some common ancestor.
Are you expecting complete fossil records for pre-Cambrian/Cambrian-era taxa?
No.
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm
Right and until you can resolve it, it remains unresolved, as for example Tegmark and Penrose for example.
Except here we don't have anything to resolve. All we have is an interpretation from paleontologists and evolutionary biologists and you saying that you disagree with it, as you explain.....
Exactly all we have are interpretations colored by one's prevailing beliefs.
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm
Well I do think the fossil record with respect to the Cambrian is so punctuated that one is justified in questioning if the diverse phyla really are the result of evolution, that's my position.
....and again....
Well of course my position won't match that of evolutionary biologists!
So is there anything more to discuss beyond the fact that you disagree?
That's for you to decide.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #75

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:14 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:58 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:40 pm You're overlooking genetic engineering:
Wikipedia wrote:Genetic engineering, also called genetic modification or genetic manipulation, is the direct manipulation of an organism's genes using biotechnology. It is a set of technologies used to change the genetic makeup of cells, including the transfer of genes within and across species boundaries to produce improved or novel organisms.
See? no common ancestry there.
Except, as that excerpt describes, genetic engineering involves the transfer of functional sequences, whereas the genetic testing that is used to establish relatedness relies on comparison of genetic errors.

Also, genetic engineering is something human beings do and humans have only existed for the last ~250,000-300,000 years, while life has existed on earth for ~4 billion years.
In the narrow sense that changes take place to the genome yes I agree, but the broader more expansive claims that the same process can and did lead to huge diversity and macroscopic changes isn't really observable given that this requires huge timeframes.
As I showed by posting multiple examples of observed speciation events, we know that evolution occurs to the point where it generates new species. Thus when we look at the fossil record and see the appearance of new species, it's rational to infer that they too came about via evolution.

It's no different than geologists inferring that specific ash layers they uncover were produced by volcanic eruptions, just as they see volcanoes today produce the same types of ash layers.

And yes, I'm fully aware that your position is that uniformitarianism is an unwarranted and erroneous framework in the earth and life sciences. I'm also aware that you do not have a better alternative, nor are you interested in developing one and demonstrating its superiority. So once again.....so noted.
Well I never said that "uniformitarianism is an unwarranted and erroneous framework in the earth and life sciences" I said something very different, that the argument the earth being billions of years old rests upon the assumption of uniformitarianism and that it is a very reasonable assumption, here, read it yourself, this is what I said on Feb 13:
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:18 pm That assumption is called uniformitarianism and it is an assumption, quite reasonable but totally assumed.

If we choose to NOT assume uniformitarianism then we can say that around 6,000 years ago the earth was created by God and the laws of nature were created by God, they did not exist until this time. The laws allow the future state to follow the current state and follow nice smooth mathematical rules. So from the instant the earth was created the laws began to operate but to assume they always operated that way and the the earth is very very old is wrong.
If you're going to be making mistakes like this then surely you can see it will be a challenge for me to discuss things with you?
Thanks for clarifying. So if you agree that uniformitarianism is a reasonable assumption, then one would think you would also agree that when we see species appear in the fossil record it's reasonable to assume that they arose via evolution, as we observe today.
That wasn't a clarification it was a correction of a huge error, attributing something to me that was absolutely untrue, such errors can send a discussion way off course.

I would agree about the evolution interpretation and once did, except I can see now, there's insufficient evidence in the case of the Cambrian and that absence of evidence is itself inexplicable. I believe the fossils are hundreds of millions of years old, but the punctuated nature is a problem that's persisted since Darwin - IMHO.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #76

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:41 pm The same goes for me, if you're genuinely interested in discussing the absence of fossil evidence just reach out.
Noted.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm Are you expecting complete fossil records for pre-Cambrian/Cambrian-era taxa?
No.
Then I have to wonder how a discontinuous record would ever be able to show a continuous, smooth process even when that's what actually happened.
Exactly all we have are interpretations colored by one's prevailing beliefs.
And what "belief" do you think paleontologists and evolutionary biologists across the globe have shared for the last 100 years?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #77

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:43 pm I would agree about the evolution interpretation and once did, except I can see now, there's insufficient evidence in the case of the Cambrian and that absence of evidence is itself inexplicable. I believe the fossils are hundreds of millions of years old, but the punctuated nature is a problem that's persisted since Darwin - IMHO.
I don't understand. If it's reasonable to assume that evolution produced the species we see in the fossil record during non-Cambrian times, why isn't it equally reasonable to do the same for the Cambrian? Also, do you agree it's reasonable to assume the species we see in pre-Cambrian strata came about via evolution?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #78

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:41 pm The same goes for me, if you're genuinely interested in discussing the absence of fossil evidence just reach out.
Noted.
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:33 pm Are you expecting complete fossil records for pre-Cambrian/Cambrian-era taxa?
No.
Then I have to wonder how a discontinuous record would ever be able to show a continuous, smooth process even when that's what actually happened.
Exactly all we have are interpretations colored by one's prevailing beliefs.
And what "belief" do you think paleontologists and evolutionary biologists across the globe have shared for the last 100 years?
I care not to speculate but I'm sure they have beliefs.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #79

Post by The Barbarian »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:47 pm Whenever I hear about "gaps in the fossil record", I (having first learned biology in the early 1960s) immediately consider what was in evidence then, and what is in evidence now. When I started out, we lacked transitional forms for:

dinosaurs/birds
early hominids/modern humans
early anasids/turtles
wasps/ants
roaches/termites
ungulates/whales
fish/tetrapods
salamanders/frogs
reptiles/mammals
primitive plants/flowering plants
basal carnivores/canids
primitive procaviids/elephants

Today, we have all of those and many more. Basing one's argument on what is not yet known, is very faulty thinking.
So getting back on track...
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:29 pm The discontinuity is best exemplified IMHO by the Cambrian explosion,
The existence of complex forms spanning the Ediacaran/Cambrian divide put an end to that claim. It isn't the only period that saw extinction of many lines of organisms and the appearance of others.
of course this is ultimately subjective
The existence of all those transitionals is not subjective.

People who are invested in denying evolution naturally object to the fossil record, which aeven honest and knowledgeable creationists admit to be in accord with overall expectations.

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species —include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has beenconfirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumedancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level
and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

I think we'd all do well to accept that this is an objective fact, as Dr. Wise does. If the reality conflicts with a doctrine, perhaps it's a clue to revise the doctrine. Dr. Wise goes on and discusses some possible ways that creationists might be able to explain the large number of transitionals, including the Cambrian examples. He admits an ongoing problem in resolving these facts, but he has sufficient faith that he does not deny them.

Maybe you should work on that, as he and others are doing.
Last edited by The Barbarian on Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #80

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:59 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:43 pm I would agree about the evolution interpretation and once did, except I can see now, there's insufficient evidence in the case of the Cambrian and that absence of evidence is itself inexplicable. I believe the fossils are hundreds of millions of years old, but the punctuated nature is a problem that's persisted since Darwin - IMHO.
I don't understand. If it's reasonable to assume that evolution produced the species we see in the fossil record during non-Cambrian times, why isn't it equally reasonable to do the same for the Cambrian? Also, do you agree it's reasonable to assume the species we see in pre-Cambrian strata came about via evolution?
You're assuming that uniformitarianism implies evolution but they are distinct concepts.

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