"A FLOOD of NONSENSE! - Global Flood or Mass Extinctions?"

[Miles]

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A delightful explanation of why the notion of a global flood---the Noachian Flood---doesn't make any sense.




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Question: Is any of what Forrest Valkai, the host, said, wrong? If so, what and why?


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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #70]

The issue is the assumption of a global flood, which is not found in scripture.

How else can this Genesis 6 text be interpreted (King James Version, underlines mine):

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

This sure sounds like a global flood as 4400 years ago humans were already spread over much of the globe, and to kill every one of them save the 8 on the ark, the flood would have to have been global in scope. If it was just a local event in the Middle East all the people in China and elsewhere would not have died, at odds with verses 21 - 23 above. And in verse 19 "all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven" doesn't seem to leave any room for just local hills (or did "heaven" only cover the Middle East?). By "scripture" are you referring to the bible, or some other book that also fits that description (from another religion besides Christianity)?

[Miles]

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #70]

The issue is the assumption of a global flood, which is not found in scripture.

How else can this Genesis 6 text be interpreted (King James Version, underlines mine):

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

This sure sounds like a global flood as 4400 years ago humans were already spread over much of the globe, and to kill every one of them save the 8 on the ark, the flood would have to have been global in scope. If it was just a local event in the Middle East all the people in China and elsewhere would not have died, at odds with verses 21 - 23 above. And in verse 19 "all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven" doesn't seem to leave any room for just local hills (or did "heaven" only cover the Middle East?). By "scripture" are you referring to the bible, or some other book that also fits that description (from another religion besides Christianity)?

Some years ago I calculated the amount of water the Biblical flood would require so as to cover Earth to the summit of Mt. Everest, altitude = 29,029 feet, or appx. 5 1/2 miles. I didn't take the extra 15 cubits into account, but did assume a flat, sea-level landscape; however, as it turns out the mean height of land above sea level is 840 meters, so the figure of 197 million cubic miles of water should be adjusted down slightly.


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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Miles in post #72]

Some years ago I calculated the amount of water the Biblical flood would require so as to cover Earth to the summit of Mt. Everest, altitude = 29,029 feet, or appx. 5 1/2 miles.

I've done this as well and posted it a few times here in the past, and there are lots of online examples of this same thing like this one:

https://www.physics.smu.edu/~pseudo/Sci ... ahflud.htm

There's obviously no source for enough water to cause a global flood topping Everest, but Barbaran (and others, like the link above) suggest the story was only about a local flood. However, from the text as it is written in Genesis, I can't see how it doesn't describe a global flood if the result was the death of ALL air breathing animals ... not just the ones in the Middle East region. And of course this is just one of many ancient flood myths that probably got embellished by whoever pinned the Genesis version.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Eloi in post #60]

When the information is more complete, the conclusions are closer to the truth. Scientific institutions have become means of profit rather than collectives of people seeking the truth. Wise people carefully analyze all the facts before accepting any conclusion.

Posting articles from the Watchtower! What do you expect them to say? ...

Fallacies. Nothing about the information but about the source.

What else do you expect them to say?

You forgot to respond to this reasoned question:
"What mechanism do you propose in place of evolution that better explains not only the animals we find in the fossils record, but all the millions (around 8.7 million) of species we have on the planet now?

Did Noah have 8.7 million species on his ark, or do you in fact believe in some super evolution that got us from the ark to 8.7 millions species within just some thousands of years? Wouldn't it be odd for you to complain about evolution (gradual changes within a population over time) while invoking some form of Super Evolution?"

[Eloi]

You don't know what the layout of the earth was like 5 millennia ago. Geological events have greatly changed the shape of the earth's surface, as anyone can easily see even in recent times, when where there used to be a rise, there is now a plain ... and vice versa.

Nor do you know the atmospheric composition that existed at that time and how much it may have varied... For example, what was the speed of the water cycle on earth 5 millennia ago? Was there more water on the surface or in the interior of the planet than there is now? Was there more condensed water in the atmosphere than can now be calculated to exist on average in the entire atmosphere around the globe? Do you know that?

It is known, for example, that the influence of the sun and the moon can greatly influence the height of the water level or the speed of its evaporation and condensation. You don't know what was the activity of the Sun or the Moon over the earth at that time. Do you?

It is also known that in the depth of the earth there is a greater amount of water than previously thought. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 21GL093549 Could that water rise from the depths to the surface due to some geological event and thus increase the volume of water on the surface?

Calculators of the amount of water that would cover the earth in an event like a global flood have to admit that they don't have enough information to calculate that volume, let alone for the planet some 5 millennia ago.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #75]

You don't know what the layout of the earth was like 5 millennia ago. Geological events have greatly changed the shape of the earth's surface, as anyone can easily see even in recent times, when where there used to be a rise, there is now a plain ... and vice versa.

Nor do you know the atmospheric composition that existed at that time and how much it may have varied... For example, what was the speed of the water cycle on earth 5 millennia ago? Was there more water on the surface or in the interior of the planet than there is now? Was there more condensed water in the atmosphere than can now be calculated to exist on average in the entire atmosphere around the globe? Do you know that?

It is known, for example, that the influence of the sun and the moon can greatly influence the height of the water level or the speed of its evaporation and condensation. You don't know what was the activity of the Sun or the Moon over the earth at that time. Do you?

5 millennia? LOL! That is nothing in geologic time. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and we have all kinds of techniques to know all of the above things you mentioned from a measly 5000 years ago. You're talking as if 5 millennia is something significant and the Earth was in some unknown state at the time. Try to get a handle on geologic time and the speed of change in atmospheric composition, general geology, etc. ... you are orders of magnitude out on these things.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #75]

You don't know what the layout of the earth was like 5 millennia ago. Geological events have greatly changed the shape of the earth's surface, as anyone can easily see even in recent times, when where there used to be a rise, there is now a plain ... and vice versa.

Nor do you know the atmospheric composition that existed at that time and how much it may have varied... For example, what was the speed of the water cycle on earth 5 millennia ago? Was there more water on the surface or in the interior of the planet than there is now? Was there more condensed water in the atmosphere than can now be calculated to exist on average in the entire atmosphere around the globe? Do you know that?

It is known, for example, that the influence of the sun and the moon can greatly influence the height of the water level or the speed of its evaporation and condensation. You don't know what was the activity of the Sun or the Moon over the earth at that time. Do you?

5 millennia? LOL! That is nothing in geologic time. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and we have all kinds of techniques to know all of the above things you mentioned from a measly 5000 years ago. You're talking as if 5 millennia is something significant and the Earth was in some unknown state at the time. Try to get a handle on geologic time and the speed of change in atmospheric composition, general geology, etc. ... you are orders of magnitude out on these things.

Before commenting, tune in. The Bible says that the Flood occurred in 2370 B.C.

[The Barbarian]

How else can this Genesis 6 text be interpreted (King James Version, underlines mine):

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Fifteen cubits isn't very high. Maybe 25 feet, depending on which cubit you used. Maybe 45 feet with a Roman cubit. Which probably seemed a lot in Mesopotamia, which is notoriously flat. The deal is, scripture uses "eretz" meaning "land." Which can mean "my land", "hereabouts", "far as the eye can see", and "the nation." But the word for "world" is "tevel." And even "tevel" generally meant something like "all the lands we know about."

And we know that the story isn't precise in every detail, since it mentions the windows in the sky being opened to let the water fall down on the Earth. Might be entirely allegorical. Or it might be an allegory based on a real regional flood. There was such a flood in the middle east back when there were humans there, so who knows? Point is, focusing on such things is to miss the actual message.

[Miles]

[Replying to Eloi in post #75]

You don't know what the layout of the earth was like 5 millennia ago. Geological events have greatly changed the shape of the earth's surface, as anyone can easily see even in recent times, when where there used to be a rise, there is now a plain ... and vice versa.

Nor do you know the atmospheric composition that existed at that time and how much it may have varied... For example, what was the speed of the water cycle on earth 5 millennia ago? Was there more water on the surface or in the interior of the planet than there is now? Was there more condensed water in the atmosphere than can now be calculated to exist on average in the entire atmosphere around the globe? Do you know that?

It is known, for example, that the influence of the sun and the moon can greatly influence the height of the water level or the speed of its evaporation and condensation. You don't know what was the activity of the Sun or the Moon over the earth at that time. Do you?

5 millennia? LOL! That is nothing in geologic time. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and we have all kinds of techniques to know all of the above things you mentioned from a measly 5000 years ago. You're talking as if 5 millennia is something significant and the Earth was in some unknown state at the time. Try to get a handle on geologic time and the speed of change in atmospheric composition, general geology, etc. ... you are orders of magnitude out on these things.

Before commenting, tune in. The Bible says that the Flood occurred in 2370 B.C.

Where does any Bible say this?

I ask because all but one of the 14 sources I looked at disagree with whatever Bible you're using. Can I assume TIMEGRAPHICS listed below was your source as well?


WIKIPEDIA
Scholars believe that the flood myth originated in Mesopotamia during the Old Babylonian Period ( c. 18801595 BCE)
source: Wikipedia

ABC NEWS
Dr. Robert Ballard, an acclaimed underwater archaeologist, does not think he will ever find Noah's Ark, but he does think he may find evidence of a people whose entire world was washed away about 7,000 years ago. [making he date of the flood around 5,000 BCE]
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evide ... d=17884533

INSTITUTE FOR CREATION RESEARCH
The lifespans in Genesis 11 span from Abram back to the Flood. When we add the years listed in Genesis 11 to Abrams birth year 2166 B.C., we get about 2472 B.C. for the Flood year
https://www.icr.org/article/when-did-noahs-flood-happen

ANSWERS IN GENESIS
Using the Bible, well-documented historical events, and some math, we find that the Flood began approximately 4,359 years ago in the year 1656 AM or 2348 BC.
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-time ... the-flood/

CREATION MINISTRIES INTERNATIONAL
The Biblical data places the Flood at 2304 BC 11 years. [between 2293 and 2315]
https://creation.com/the-date-of-noahs-flood

NATIONAL CENTER FOR SCIENCE EDUCATION
Thus, it would be possible for a flood to have occurred in mid- Mesopotamia, perhaps about 2900 BCE, as evidenced by the scientifically dated flood deposits.
https://ncse.ngo/yes-noahs-flood-may-ha ... hole-earth

STANFORD UNIVERSITY
Bishop Ussher computed that the earth had been created in 4004 BC and that the flood occurred in 2350 BC
https://web.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnelly/bibchron.html

REASONS TO BELIEVE
The RTB flood model dates the flood of Noah at about 50,000 +/- 40,000 years ago.
https://reasons.org/explore/publication ... oahs-flood

HOLY LAND SITE
By the best records found in the Bible, the Great Flood took place around 2500 BC.
https://www.holylandsite.com/noah-ark-great-flood

GOT QUESTIONS
So, doing the math, Noahs flood occurred in approximately 2348 BC.
https://www.gotquestions.org/when-was-Noah-flood.html

ASSOCIATES FOR BIBLICAL RESEARCH
The experiences of Gilgamesh, coupled with the Sumerian King List (in which he is mentioned), suggest a Flood date close to 3000 BC.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/f ... od-3000-bc

TIMEGRAPHICS
In the year 2370 BCE, the construction of the ark was completed. As Noah entered into it in November, the flood immediately began.
https://time.graphics/event/2588166

ORTHODOX WIKI
The Masoretic Text gives for the Deluge a date around 2300 BC (which seems inconsistent with the data on the most ancient civilizations such as Ancient Egypt) and the Samaritan Pentateuch places it around 2900 BC.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Great_Flood_of_Noah

CHABAD.ORG
The Great Flood (known as the mabul in Hebrew) was sent by Gd in the year 1656 of Creation (2105 BCE), to cleanse the earth of mankinds corrupt ways.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... -Bible.htm

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #77]

Before commenting, tune in. The Bible says that the Flood occurred in 2370 B.C.

What's your point? 2370 BC was about 4400 years ago ... the value I've been using. 5 millennia is 5000 years so roughtly the same time frame, and we know what things like atmospheric composition, available water for a global flood, etc. where such a short time ago (although you seem to think 5 millennia was a long time ago geologically for some reason). We also know that no GLOBAL flood occurred anywhere near 2370 BC, because (a) there's no physical evidence for it and (b) it can be easily shown that such a worldwide flood was not impossible at any time humans have inhabited the planet from many different angles (not enough water, plant and animal distributions today, the logistics of the ark and all it would have had to contain and feed, etc., etc.). It didn't happen.