How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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JoeyKnothead
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #901

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:29 am ...
See! this is the blinkered wishful thinking of the evolution devotee, ...
We're left to ponder on if you can present you an argument - any argument - that doesn't rely on your using insults in an attempt to gain favor for your position.

For them interested.
Evolution is a devotion though, the manner by which many here leap to its defense, the fanatical rejection of anyone skeptical of it, the insistence that evolution is the only explanation for what we see, all of this is obsessive behavior.
Not unlike your obsessive behavior with insulting anyone with whom you disagree?

Notice here, the insult wasn't about devotion to an idea, but "blinkered wishful thinking".
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #902

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:29 am ...
See! this is the blinkered wishful thinking of the evolution devotee, ...
We're left to ponder on if you can present you an argument - any argument - that doesn't rely on your using insults in an attempt to gain favor for your position.

For them interested.
Evolution is a devotion though, the manner by which many here leap to its defense, the fanatical rejection of anyone skeptical of it, the insistence that evolution is the only explanation for what we see, all of this is obsessive behavior.
Not unlike your obsessive behavior with insulting anyone with whom you disagree?

Notice here, the insult wasn't about devotion to an idea, but "blinkered wishful thinking".
Is that really an insult though? it's intended as a characterization, describing an apparent attitude that's has narrow tolerance for ideas and over stating the scientific veracity of conjecture, if this is an insult then that decision is best left to a moderator.

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JoeyKnothead
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #903

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:25 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:29 am ...
See! this is the blinkered wishful thinking of the evolution devotee, ...
We're left to ponder on if you can present you an argument - any argument - that doesn't rely on your using insults in an attempt to gain favor for your position.

For them interested.
Evolution is a devotion though, the manner by which many here leap to its defense, the fanatical rejection of anyone skeptical of it, the insistence that evolution is the only explanation for what we see, all of this is obsessive behavior.
Not unlike your obsessive behavior with insulting anyone with whom you disagree?

Notice here, the insult wasn't about devotion to an idea, but "blinkered wishful thinking".
Is that really an insult though? it's intended as a characterization, describing an apparent attitude that's has narrow tolerance for ideas and over stating the scientific veracity of conjecture, if this is an insult then that decision is best left to a moderator.
A characterizing can be an insult too.

Like if I was to characterize you as an idiot, that'd be just as insulting as saying you are, in fact, an idiot.

I'm trying to get you to understand that insulting folks ain't a reliable means of refuting their arguments.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #904

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:37 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:25 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:50 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:29 am ...
See! this is the blinkered wishful thinking of the evolution devotee, ...
We're left to ponder on if you can present you an argument - any argument - that doesn't rely on your using insults in an attempt to gain favor for your position.

For them interested.
Evolution is a devotion though, the manner by which many here leap to its defense, the fanatical rejection of anyone skeptical of it, the insistence that evolution is the only explanation for what we see, all of this is obsessive behavior.
Not unlike your obsessive behavior with insulting anyone with whom you disagree?

Notice here, the insult wasn't about devotion to an idea, but "blinkered wishful thinking".
Is that really an insult though? it's intended as a characterization, describing an apparent attitude that's has narrow tolerance for ideas and over stating the scientific veracity of conjecture, if this is an insult then that decision is best left to a moderator.
A characterizing can be an insult too.

Like if I was to characterize you as an idiot, that'd be just as insulting as saying you are, in fact, an idiot.

I'm trying to get you to understand that insulting folks ain't a reliable means of refuting their arguments.
Please reach out to a moderator, I'm not going to argue with you about this, good afternoon.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #905

Post by The Barbarian »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:34 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:01 am But Barbara
Aw, he's mad. But being a Christian, I don't think it's an insult to be a woman, so your gender-confusion is just funny, not offensive.
Tour's lecture was about the origin of life not evolution,
Probably a bad idea for you to insert it into a discussion of evolution, then.
The interior of meteorites has often revealed amino acids and even short protein sequences. They are clearly abiotic, and yet they've "moved toward life."
Murchison contains common amino acids such as glycine, alanine, and glutamic acid as well as unusual ones such as isovaline and pseudoleucine.[9] A complex mixture of alkanes was isolated as well, similar to that found in the Miller–Urey experiment. Serine and threonine, usually considered to be earthly contaminants, were conspicuously absent in the samples. A specific family of amino acids called diamino acids was identified in the Murchison meteorite as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murchison_meteorite

But there's more:
Measured purine and pyrimidine compounds were found in the Murchison meteorite. Carbon isotope ratios for uracil and xanthine of δ13C = +44.5‰ and +37.7‰, respectively, indicate a non-terrestrial origin for these compounds. This specimen demonstrates that many organic compounds could have been delivered by early Solar System bodies and may have played a key role in life's origin.
ibid

Again, he seems to be completely unaware of that.
are you disagreeing with him?
The meteorites say one thing, he says another. I'm going to have to go with the evidence. Sorry.

When he says:
Organisms care about life.
Bacteria seem to have no cares whatever. However, the chemistry of bacteria does indeed act as though life matters. The movement of air and moisture within a hurricane seem to act much like the chemical in bacteria. But I think ascribing a conscious agency to either is unwarranted.
Without a biologically derived entity acting upon them, molecules have never been shown to evolve to toward life.
Unless you consider amino acids, nucleotides and peptides to not be properties of living things.
Do you disagree with him?
I'd be open to his argument that amino acids, nucleotides and peptides are not properties of life. What does he have to support that?
remember he is a highly respected scientist, doctorates in chemistry and biochemistry, elected to the AAAS etc - you cannot dismiss him in such a cavalier way.
As Ronald Reagan said, facts are stubborn things. And they have no regard for honors and degrees. Reality is funny that way. Besides, against him are many, many much more distinguished scientists who actually have Nobels and other honors in biology itself. So your appeal to authority is a bad choice even if it wasn't a logical error.
You accuse him also of making an error that even an 8th grade student would not make, but can you prove that?
Yeah, in most states middle school biology includes a discussion of evolutionary theory.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #906

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:01 am Once again the title of the lecture was "James Tour: The Mystery of the Origin of Life" in case you didn't notice, it was not about evolution.
And this thread is about evolution, not the origin of life. Good grief.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #907

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

brunumb wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:46 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:01 am Once again the title of the lecture was "James Tour: The Mystery of the Origin of Life" in case you didn't notice, it was not about evolution.
And this thread is about evolution, not the origin of life. Good grief.
Very well, lets all police every post for strict adherence to the title of the topic, yes? is that what you want?

Look at this then.

I posted a short video with Berlinski critiquing evolution and what happened?

People said nothing about his arguments and instead started to talk about him and astrology and so on.

Is this not hypocrisy? berating me for straying off topic when others do it routinely and you say nothing about that?
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #908

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:39 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:37 pm A characterizing can be an insult too.

Like if I was to characterize you as an idiot, that'd be just as insulting as saying you are, in fact, an idiot.

I'm trying to get you to understand that insulting folks ain't a reliable means of refuting their arguments.
Please reach out to a moderator, I'm not going to argue with you about this, good afternoon.
Of course you don't wanna fuss about your repeated and ongoing use of insults across these pages.

You just wanna use insults without getting called out for em.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #909

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:54 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:39 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:37 pm A characterizing can be an insult too.

Like if I was to characterize you as an idiot, that'd be just as insulting as saying you are, in fact, an idiot.

I'm trying to get you to understand that insulting folks ain't a reliable means of refuting their arguments.
Please reach out to a moderator, I'm not going to argue with you about this, good afternoon.
Of course you don't wanna fuss about your repeated and ongoing use of insults across these pages.

You just wanna use insults without getting called out for em.
I refer you to my earlier post.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #910

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:57 pm I refer you to my earlier post.
And I refer you to my earlier post...

viewtopic.php?p=1069037#p1069037

Your history of insults and slanders is well established as a tactic employed when an argument confounds your own.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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