On the mathematics of the universe

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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JoeyKnothead
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On the mathematics of the universe

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 136 here:

In response to the following quote...
Again, "creation cosmology" has a fatal flaw in that the postulated entity doing the creating has yet to be found or shown to exist in any form. So it is a hypothesis without (as of yet) any supporting physical evidence or convincing theoretical backing.
Our claimant declares...
EarthScienceguy wrote: Mathematically there is no other solution to the origin of the universe.
(My emboldinating to get at the claim this OP seeks to address)

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm a mathematical calculation provides confirmation of a god creating the universe.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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Re: On the mathematics of the universe

Post #11

Post by William »

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #10]
the 'open window/cat' represents 'the brain created consciousness' whereas "Ghosts" are more accurately a description for consciousnesses, even if brains did create them...perhaps even especially if that were the case.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. How is a pure natural processes represent consciousness?


Why would you conclude that someone did something where there is a natural explanation for it?
Emergent Theory [the brain creates the consciousness we each are] believes that the individual brain creates the individual consciousness and thus explains alternate experiences as "hallucinations" created by the brain for the consciousness to experience.

That in itself is a rather large presumption. But my comment was in regard to consciousness being 'like a ghost' as in - an immaterial thing...

Considering that we cannot acutely do anything normal with our bodies without consciousness being involved, then literally it is 'ghosts' [the immaterial thing] which is the thing required in order for normal actions to happen. This includes discovering mathematical process behind things which make up the Universe as well as mathematical inventions which help us to explain the Universe.

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Re: On the mathematics of the universe

Post #12

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:51 pm Emergent Theory [the brain creates the consciousness we each are] believes that the individual brain creates the individual consciousness and thus explains alternate experiences as "hallucinations" created by the brain for the consciousness to experience.

That in itself is a rather large presumption. But my comment was in regard to consciousness being 'like a ghost' as in - an immaterial thing...

Considering that we cannot acutely do anything normal with our bodies without consciousness being involved, then literally it is 'ghosts' [the immaterial thing] which is the thing required in order for normal actions to happen. This includes discovering mathematical process behind things which make up the Universe as well as mathematical inventions which help us to explain the Universe.
Your ideas are very intriguing, and I find them reasonable and rational at first glance, but unprovable.

I know we've discussed this before, but I'll say it anyway...

We only ever see consciousness as the product of a physical brain, so therefore it's more probable that consciousness ain't it from 'the ether', but from the physical. Sure, we can posit and propose, and speculate, and carry on, but ultimately I think your idea fails for at least the following reasons...

1. Provable physicality of consciousness
2. Unprovability of non-physical consciousness
3. (No slur here, I owe my friend to tell the truth) I propose, and think the data supports, that many (most?) humans use the god concept as a sort of placeholder for incomplete or missing data, or stuff that's just unknowable.

On the 1st'n there, I'll assert until challenged.

On the 2nd'n there, I propose that placing consciousness into realms we can't really explore would lead to the 'etherness' of the postulation, thus being unconfirmable as accurate, true, etc.

I exclude William from some of the following particulars, but here I go...
On that 3rd'n there, we see cultures develop differing god concepts, and can locate such to geographical / societal divisions. If only to me, this is highly indicative of a 'creative' answer to the unknowable. Then when we see, so often, anthropomorphic notions put upon a given god, well how bout that. I won't try to anticipate what errors in my thinking folks might submit, but want folks to know I do ponder em before I submit this post.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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Re: On the mathematics of the universe

Post #13

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to William in post #12]

Okay, but I don't see how that implies the mathematical process behind things which make up the universe that we discovered is the product of a mind.

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Re: On the mathematics of the universe

Post #14

Post by William »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:49 am [Replying to William in post #12]

Okay, but I don't see how that implies the mathematical process behind things which make up the universe that we discovered is the product of a mind.
IF so THEN it is a mind which uses mathematics in relation to what is created.

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Re: On the mathematics of the universe

Post #15

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to William in post #15]

As in our human minds? I am not going dispute that our minds used mathematics to model the universe.

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