Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Wootah
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Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Wootah »

Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #51

Post by Miles »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:43 am
Wootah wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:53 am Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
No, the term "universe" has a scope that includes all matter, energy, fields, laws, everything we deal with in scientific inquiry. So before any of that existed none of that existed.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:43 am
Wootah wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:53 am Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
No, the term "universe" has a scope that includes all matter, energy, fields, laws, everything we deal with in scientific inquiry. So before any of that existed none of that existed.
The universe as we know it began with the expansion at the so-called Big Bang. That does not mean that there was nothing before that. The universe may be just a local part of a greater, all encompassing cosmos that we know nothing about as yet.
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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #53

Post by thomasdixon »

Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?
Personally, I do not believe there was a “big bang”. The idea that there was a “big bang” is based on our observation of the stars that we see today who appear to be traveling away from each other.
There are two (2) things wrong with this theory.
(1) If the stars are traveling away from us this would make our point of observation the center point.
(2) Humans assume there must be a beginning point to anything being observed in motion.
This precludes infinity.
In a domain of infinite possibilities, the observed universe has always been expanding and will expand infinitely.
Which in the end makes my statement pointless.
8-)

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #54

Post by thomasdixon »

brunumb wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:59 pmThe universe as we know it began with the expansion at the so-called Big Bang. That does not mean that there was nothing before that. The universe may be just a local part of a greater, all encompassing cosmos that we know nothing about as yet.
great observation
as I see it
:)

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Wootah »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:43 am
Wootah wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:53 am Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
No, the term "universe" has a scope that includes all matter, energy, fields, laws, everything we deal with in scientific inquiry. So before any of that existed none of that existed.
At the time of the big bang how did the stuff of the universe 'know' to follow the laws of the universe? Surely the first part of the bang was the laws then the matter?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

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Post by Wootah »

thomasdixon wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:59 pmThe universe as we know it began with the expansion at the so-called Big Bang. That does not mean that there was nothing before that. The universe may be just a local part of a greater, all encompassing cosmos that we know nothing about as yet.
great observation
as I see it
:)
The universe is part of the universe? Doesn't make sense, does it?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #57

Post by brunumb »

Wootah wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:25 pm
thomasdixon wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:59 pmThe universe as we know it began with the expansion at the so-called Big Bang. That does not mean that there was nothing before that. The universe may be just a local part of a greater, all encompassing cosmos that we know nothing about as yet.
great observation
as I see it
:)
The universe is part of the universe? Doesn't make sense, does it?
The singularity that expanded producing what we call the universe may be just part of something larger that I simply called the cosmos. The term universe is generally applied to 'everything' but what we know as the universe may not be everything.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #58

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

brunumb wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:59 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:43 am
Wootah wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:53 am Assuming the universe was created via the big bang, did the universal constants exist before the big bang or were they created at the same time as the big bang?
No, the term "universe" has a scope that includes all matter, energy, fields, laws, everything we deal with in scientific inquiry. So before any of that existed none of that existed.
The universe as we know it began with the expansion at the so-called Big Bang. That does not mean that there was nothing before that. The universe may be just a local part of a greater, all encompassing cosmos that we know nothing about as yet.
No, "the universe" means all material that exists, everything, all energy, fields, laws, matter everything that has physical existence, presence - that's what it means and that's how I use it here, if you want to define as something else we likely cannot communicate on this subject.

So before "everything that exists" existed there was - by definition - nothing, no laws, no matter, no fields, no energy.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #59

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

brunumb wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:27 am
Wootah wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:25 pm
thomasdixon wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:59 pmThe universe as we know it began with the expansion at the so-called Big Bang. That does not mean that there was nothing before that. The universe may be just a local part of a greater, all encompassing cosmos that we know nothing about as yet.
great observation
as I see it
:)
The universe is part of the universe? Doesn't make sense, does it?
The singularity that expanded producing what we call the universe may be just part of something larger that I simply called the cosmos. The term universe is generally applied to 'everything' but what we know as the universe may not be everything.
First a singularity is almost an admission that our model is wrong, singularities in the physical sciences indicate a deep and serious error a poor axiom, something is wrong - that's what it means, regarding them as having physical meaning is folly because the very concept of law and relationship disappears as soon as you regard infinity as physically meaningful.

Whatever materially preceded the big bang - whatever it was - will have been subject to physical laws, that is the change in state of the system will have followed rules, mathematical laws else it cannot be claimed to be scientifically explicable.

It is clear that the only rational way to avoid infinite regress (which we must do if we attach meaning to the term "scientific explanation") is to postulate a non-scientific process, something not governed by laws, something able to bring laws to exist and matter to exist that is not itself matter and does not itself embody physical laws.

That is how we, how I, infer God, it is what I see as evidence for God, the presence of the universe is evidence for God.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Did the universal constants exist before the big bang?

Post #60

Post by William »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #59]
That is how we, how I, infer God, it is what I see as evidence for God, the presence of the universe is evidence for God.
Search "God"
Essential Meaning of god

1: the perfect and all-powerful spirit or being that is worshipped especially by Christians, Jews, and Muslims as the one who created and rules the universe
Does she believe in God?
(May) God bless us all.


2: a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions
the gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt
a Hindu god


3: a person and especially a man who is greatly loved or admired
a professor who was regarded as a kind of god
a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix
Source.

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