A 6 Day Creation

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 961 here:

There is now more evidence than ever before about 6-day creation.

For debate:

Please offer evidence for a literal six day creation of the Universe.

Please remember that in this section of the site the Bible is not considered authoritative.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Prior to my conversion I can see that I tricked myself, I willingly and willfully chose to interpret the world in a way I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be Godless, I wanted to believe in a Star Trek like future, where we look forward to a wonderful future brought to us by science and technology, that desire was what drove my choice - it was a choice too, even if that wasn't clear to me at the time.

I really don't understand that. Why would anyone want the world to be godless?

Because we are selfish and want to do as we please.

I actually want there to be a loving, caring God who will grant me life after death and the prospect of meeting loved ones again and living in peace and harmony. Who wouldn't?

But you don't else you'd recognize what I'm saying to you. Humans are innately hostile to God, it is how we were created. You perhaps want "a God" but on your terms, not God's, you have no interest in a complete change of how you think, you are unwilling to abandon your comfortable beliefs, the cozy physical ("fleshly" as it is sometimes termed) world. You might want a God that conforms to your desires, a God of your making.

But, unfortunately, despite what I would prefer my brain has rejected all of that based on everything it has experienced so far. It is most definitely nothing to do with choice. Belief is NOT a matter of choice. We are either convinced that something is true or we are not.

You, all of us, inherently are hostile to God, we despise God and rejoice each time we can push him away from ourselves, God is very unwelcome, man has always rejected God except when God has supernaturally brought us down at heel, enabling us to see what we could not see before.

God created us this way so that we could undergo the experience of seeing what we are without God and understanding God when he does reveal himself to us, each of us goes through or will go through that experience at some point.

I do not have all the answers either, I only know what I have learned here and there, the entire subject is beyond human comprehension I think.

Your argument makes as much sense as claiming that an adult is hostile to Santa Claus, or that you are hostile toward Allah.
You must not understand how utterly silly of a claim this is to make.

It makes no sense to you because you can only perceive the material, anything I say about God will be meaningless to you.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Prior to my conversion I can see that I tricked myself, I willingly and willfully chose to interpret the world in a way I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be Godless, I wanted to believe in a Star Trek like future, where we look forward to a wonderful future brought to us by science and technology, that desire was what drove my choice - it was a choice too, even if that wasn't clear to me at the time.

I really don't understand that. Why would anyone want the world to be godless? I actually want there to be a loving, caring God who will grant me life after death and the prospect of meeting loved ones again and living in peace and harmony. Who wouldn't? But, unfortunately, despite what I would prefer my brain has rejected all of that based on everything it has experienced so far. It is most definitely nothing to do with choice. Belief is NOT a matter of choice. We are either convinced that something is true or we are not.

I agree. I couldn't possibly choose to belief in god/gods. Once I examined the claims of theism and most specifically Christianity and saw that they don't add up, I couldn't continue to believe in God. The kicker was beginning to see the function specific beliefs play. For instance, the belief in an afterlife help humans avoid the reality that death is final. Is there any evidence of an afterlife? None. Is there any evidence humans fear death? Plenty.


Tcg

Well a study of human made religions and institutions and denominations is just that, primarily a study of human culture.

God reveals himself to us individually at a time of his choosing, one cannot find God, one cannot search for God, God reveals himself, we are fleshly, material beings and cannot discover spiritual truths, unless they are revealed to us we remain totally ignorant of them.

God is undiscoverable by mankind.

That is a lot of claims you have made. Please show that you speak the truth or kindly retract your claims for being nothing more than empty religious platitudes.

"If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments?" - brunumb

How can I prove to you that God has revealed himself to me?

[Jose Fly]

No Jose, asking a question is not advocating a position, you really need to pay attention to what you write.

Ah, the Glen Beck ploy....."I'm just asking questions".

Now will you please just answer my question, are you able to distinguish? the correct, honest answer is "no" isn't it?

I've already answered that. To repeat, no we would not be able to tell the difference between an ancient universe and one that the gods have just made to seem ancient, but is really young. And therefore..........?

Good, at last. Therefore we cannot scientifically establish the age of the earth without making some initial assumption.

When you've done that, go and read the definition of solipsism, try to pay attention to the definition in future.

Solipsism is the belief that nothing can be truly known, except for one's own existence. That's pretty much what you've brought into the discussion.

No that isn't at all what I brought into the discussion please pay attention.

I believe the world exists therefore I am not a solipsist.

Well this is just going in pointless circles. Earlier I asked you if "you have to make initial assumptions" applied to everything (not just the age of the earth) and you agreed that it does. That's the very definition of solipsism, yet here you are denying that you brought it up.

When you figure out a consistent position, let me know.

[Difflugia]

How can I prove to you that God has revealed himself to me?

Ask some of your friends to help you pray for Him to reveal Himself to us, too. If two or three of you can agree that He should, it will be done for you by your Father who is in heaven.

[Sherlock Holmes]

No Jose, asking a question is not advocating a position, you really need to pay attention to what you write.

Ah, the Glen Beck ploy....."I'm just asking questions".

Now will you please just answer my question, are you able to distinguish? the correct, honest answer is "no" isn't it?

I've already answered that. To repeat, no we would not be able to tell the difference between an ancient universe and one that the gods have just made to seem ancient, but is really young. And therefore..........?

Good, at last. Therefore we cannot scientifically establish the age of the earth without making some initial assumption.

When you've done that, go and read the definition of solipsism, try to pay attention to the definition in future.

Solipsism is the belief that nothing can be truly known, except for one's own existence. That's pretty much what you've brought into the discussion.

No that isn't at all what I brought into the discussion please pay attention.

I believe the world exists therefore I am not a solipsist.

Well this is just going in pointless circles. Earlier I asked you if "you have to make initial assumptions" applied to everything (not just the age of the earth) and you agreed that it does. That's the very definition of solipsism, yet here you are denying that you brought it up.

When you figure out a consistent position, let me know.

I'm not a solipsist what more do you want from me? If you've misunderstood me then it won't be the first time, self evident truths are not assumptions, like I know I exist I do not assume I exist, do you assume you exist? if so try assuming you don't exist.

[Jose Fly]

I'm not a solipsist what more do you want from me?

You say you're not, but the arguments you put forth indicate otherwise. For example, you argue that science must first make the basic assumption that things truly are as they appear rather than being some sort of illusion from a god, who created it one way but made it seem as if it came about completely differently, and did so in ways that we cannot detect.

My response is, that's the case with everything. We all make the fundamental assumption that reality exists, and exists as we perceive it, in everything we do.

So regardless of what label we slap on that, I still wonder.....what exactly is your point? Science, like every other human endeavor, makes the fundamental assumption that reality exists, and exists as we perceive it. Therefore...........?

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm not a solipsist what more do you want from me?

You say you're not, but the arguments you put forth indicate otherwise. For example, you argue that science must first make the basic assumption that things truly are as they appear rather than being some sort of illusion from a god, who created it one way but made it seem as if it came about completely differently, and did so in ways that we cannot detect.

No, you are the one who used the term "illusion" because that fact that you might get something wrong must always be someone else's fault.

My response is, that's the case with everything. We all make the fundamental assumption that reality exists, and exists as we perceive it, in everything we do.

Do not assume that I assume as you do. Again, self evident truths are not assumptions.

So regardless of what label we slap on that, I still wonder.....what exactly is your point? Science, like every other human endeavor, makes the fundamental assumption that reality exists, and exists as we perceive it. Therefore...........?

That the world exists is not something we've disagreed on Jose. That it is billions of years old however is true only if we assume uniformitarianism, this is not solipsism, I regard it as self evident that the world exists, I do not assume it exists.

Therefore if we do not assume uniformitarianism we can create a totally rational argument that the earth is a few thousand years old and was created in six days, this is not new, scholars, theologians, philosophers and most scientists during the scientific revolution all understood this, it has never been regarded as remarkable at all.

[Jose Fly]

I'm not a solipsist what more do you want from me?

You say you're not, but the arguments you put forth indicate otherwise. For example, you argue that science must first make the basic assumption that things truly are as they appear rather than being some sort of illusion from a god, who created it one way but made it seem as if it came about completely differently, and did so in ways that we cannot detect.

No, you are the one who used the term "illusion" because that fact that you might get something wrong must always be someone else's fault.

My response is, that's the case with everything. We all make the fundamental assumption that reality exists, and exists as we perceive it, in everything we do.

Do not assume that I assume as you do. Again, self evident truths are not assumptions.

So regardless of what label we slap on that, I still wonder.....what exactly is your point? Science, like every other human endeavor, makes the fundamental assumption that reality exists, and exists as we perceive it. Therefore...........?

That the world exists is not something we've disagreed on Jose. That it is billions of years old however is true only if we assume uniformitarianism, this is not solipsism, I regard it as self evident that the world exists, I do not assume it exists.

Therefore if we do not assume uniformitarianism we can create a totally rational argument that the earth is a few thousand years old and was created in six days, this is not new, scholars, theologians, philosophers and most scientists during the scientific revolution all understood this, it has never been regarded as remarkable at all.

I guess this is just what denialism forces people to do....talk themselves in circles with no consideration about maintaining consistency.

You posited that perhaps the universe was really created by a god 6,000 years ago, and it only appears to be billions of years old because that same god made it seem that way.

But you apparently only want that to apply to the age of the universe (or earth). Why?

[Clownboat]

Your argument makes as much sense as claiming that an adult is hostile to Santa Claus, or that you are hostile toward Allah.
You must not understand how utterly silly of a claim this is to make.

It makes no sense to you because you can only perceive the material, anything I say about God will be meaningless to you.

No, It doesn't make sense due to what I already explained, which you didn't seem to grasp.

Again, it would make as much sense as claiming an adult hated Santa Claus. Adults know that Santa is not real, therefore to hate something that is not real is nonsensical. It is just like claiming that someone who doesn't believe that a god is real, does so because they hate this thing that they don't believe is real, like an adult hating Santa Claus.

If you are still confused, I could try with crayons.

[Clownboat]

Prior to my conversion I can see that I tricked myself, I willingly and willfully chose to interpret the world in a way I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be Godless, I wanted to believe in a Star Trek like future, where we look forward to a wonderful future brought to us by science and technology, that desire was what drove my choice - it was a choice too, even if that wasn't clear to me at the time.

I really don't understand that. Why would anyone want the world to be godless? I actually want there to be a loving, caring God who will grant me life after death and the prospect of meeting loved ones again and living in peace and harmony. Who wouldn't? But, unfortunately, despite what I would prefer my brain has rejected all of that based on everything it has experienced so far. It is most definitely nothing to do with choice. Belief is NOT a matter of choice. We are either convinced that something is true or we are not.

I agree. I couldn't possibly choose to belief in god/gods. Once I examined the claims of theism and most specifically Christianity and saw that they don't add up, I couldn't continue to believe in God. The kicker was beginning to see the function specific beliefs play. For instance, the belief in an afterlife help humans avoid the reality that death is final. Is there any evidence of an afterlife? None. Is there any evidence humans fear death? Plenty.


Tcg

Well a study of human made religions and institutions and denominations is just that, primarily a study of human culture.

God reveals himself to us individually at a time of his choosing, one cannot find God, one cannot search for God, God reveals himself, we are fleshly, material beings and cannot discover spiritual truths, unless they are revealed to us we remain totally ignorant of them.

God is undiscoverable by mankind.

That is a lot of claims you have made. Please show that you speak the truth or kindly retract your claims for being nothing more than empty religious platitudes.

"If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments?" - brunumb

How can I prove to you that God has revealed himself to me?

Why would I request such a thing?

I would like you to prove you speak the truth in regards to claims you have made:
- God reveals himself to us individually at a time of his choosing
- one cannot find God
- one cannot search for God
- God reveals himself
- we are fleshly, material beings and cannot discover spiritual truths
- God is undiscoverable by mankind

And to the last, what is the difference between a god that is undiscoverable and one that doesn't exist? A non existent god would by definition be undiscoverable. An existent God could be discovered due to it existing. Is this not evidence that the gods do not exist? It seems to suggest just that afterall.