Really slow response when logged-in?

Feedback and site usage questions

Moderator: Moderators

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Really slow response when logged-in?

Post #1

Post by WeSee »

This is true when clicking on forum links, topic links, logging-in, posting responses, starting new topics, etc. Presumably for everything it takes a couple of minutes to get a response.

When not logged-in, navigating the forum doesn't have those long delays.

The above is true for both Google Chrome and MS Edge.

Do you have a fix?[/quote]

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #11

Post by WeSee »

[Replying to Difflugia]


You haven't offered much to go on, but the most likely culprits are your browser, your computer/device, a wifi router's firewall, and your ISP in that order.

Taking into account all that I've written on this issue, can you take each of the "most likely culprits" in turn and provide a cogent explanation as to why it is "most likely"?

Hopefully you're not just talking through your hat. All things considered it seems likely that you are.

User avatar
Difflugia
Guru
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1887 times
Been thanked: 1384 times

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

WeSee wrote:Taking into account all that I've written on this issue, can you take each of the "most likely culprits" in turn and provide a cogent explanation as to why it is "most likely"?
Yes.
WeSee wrote:Hopefully you're not just talking through your hat. All things considered it seems likely that you are.
Mind the door on your way out.

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #13

Post by WeSee »

[Replying to Difflugia]

How unfortunate. You make claims and then are unable to back them up when invited to do so. My hope has been dashed...

User avatar
Difflugia
Guru
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1887 times
Been thanked: 1384 times

Post #14

Post by Difflugia »

WeSee wrote:How unfortunate. You make claims and then are unable to back them up when invited to do so. My hope has been dashed...
You know what? You're right. I've responded to people in the debate portion of the forum that were even less civil than you are, so here you go.

Your slow page rendering is one of five things:
  • Otseng's server is slow to respond
  • A different server is slow to respond (like an ad server)
  • The servers are responding in a timely fashion, but the request is slow to reach them
  • The servers are responding in a timely fashion, but the data aren't making it all the way back to your computer
  • As far as communication is concerned, everything's working fine, but your browser just isn't rendering the page in a timely fashion.
Since nobody else is having problems with the first one, if it's otseng's server, it's something unique to you. The most likely things to make that different would be the user settings. It's possible that your combination of settings would be causing the site's database to do a JOIN on a weird set of tables that takes a long time to return. That's plausible (badly crafted JOIN statements on an SQL database can be NP-hard), but since nobody else has noticed the problem, not likely. I did mention it, though, if you recall.

Since I expect that even your observational skills are sufficient to notice the difference between "logged in" and "not logged in," then you have proven yourself that you can get data from otseng's server. Barring the problematic database query, then, his server isn't the problem.

If you're being at least reasonably honest about the "minutes" you claim, then that means that you're establishing a connection to a server, but the browser is timing out waiting for data to be received. Once again, nobody else has the problem. That points to something in your unique setup. Most likely in my estimation is a firewall problem on your computer, just because there are so many ways for a firewall (particularly the Windows firewall) to screw things up in nonobvious ways by rejecting data, particularly if you have your computer configured to ask you whenever the firewall blocks or allows a new address.

The next likely is if you have a newish router with its own firewall that does packet inspection. If any of the sites that the page requests data from (including otseng's) serves something that, for whatever reason, causes a false positive, then packets get dropped. If the pattern is just right, then you might be able to make a connection to a site, but not receive data back, leading to a timeout. This doesn't happen very often, but it most closely matches the behavior you're seeing.

If your ISP is the problem, then it isn't affecting all sites. Either your particular ISP has a problem routing to some specific site linked by debatingchristianity.com (an image site, for example, could do it) or its DNS server is serving a bad IP address for the particular site. Trying a different ISP (like from your phone) would eliminate any of those problems. If it's just the DNS problem, though, Google's is generally as reliable as they come.

Finally, that leaves something that your computer is doing completely independent of data transfer, like some weird virus, choking on a script that's present on the page when you're logged in, or a custom privacy configuration in your browser that you don't quite understand. There are so many possibilities here that it's actually the most common problem. Just trying something like a phone would let you know that's the problem.

Good luck. If you're not sure what any of the words mean, feel free to ask. I'll be praying for you.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 7157
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 1290 times
Been thanked: 1514 times

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

WeSee wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Tcg]

None of the other sites I visit have this issue. The vast majority respond within a couple of seconds. No others take minutes as it does when I'm logged into this site. No others come even close.

Maybe the trick is to have an "aging laptop"...
Perhaps, but I doubt it. This wasn't presented as a solution to the problem you are experiencing. You have been offered possible solutions, but apparently are hesitant to take any steps to attempt to resolve your issue.

Given that others aren't experiencing the issues you are, there must be something specific to your setup that is the culprit. If you aren't willing to offer any assistance in determining what that is, nothing more can be done for you.


Tcg

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #16

Post by WeSee »

Difflugia wrote:
WeSee wrote:How unfortunate. You make claims and then are unable to back them up when invited to do so. My hope has been dashed...
You know what? You're right. I've responded to people in the debate portion of the forum that were even less civil than you are, so here you go.

Your slow page rendering is one of five things:
  • Otseng's server is slow to respond
  • A different server is slow to respond (like an ad server)
  • The servers are responding in a timely fashion, but the request is slow to reach them
  • The servers are responding in a timely fashion, but the data aren't making it all the way back to your computer
  • As far as communication is concerned, everything's working fine, but your browser just isn't rendering the page in a timely fashion.
Since nobody else is having problems with the first one, if it's otseng's server, it's something unique to you. The most likely things to make that different would be the user settings. It's possible that your combination of settings would be causing the site's database to do a JOIN on a weird set of tables that takes a long time to return. That's plausible (badly crafted JOIN statements on an SQL database can be NP-hard), but since nobody else has noticed the problem, not likely. I did mention it, though, if you recall.

Since I expect that even your observational skills are sufficient to notice the difference between "logged in" and "not logged in," then you have proven yourself that you can get data from otseng's server. Barring the problematic database query, then, his server isn't the problem.

If you're being at least reasonably honest about the "minutes" you claim, then that means that you're establishing a connection to a server, but the browser is timing out waiting for data to be received. Once again, nobody else has the problem. That points to something in your unique setup. Most likely in my estimation is a firewall problem on your computer, just because there are so many ways for a firewall (particularly the Windows firewall) to screw things up in nonobvious ways by rejecting data, particularly if you have your computer configured to ask you whenever the firewall blocks or allows a new address.

The next likely is if you have a newish router with its own firewall that does packet inspection. If any of the sites that the page requests data from (including otseng's) serves something that, for whatever reason, causes a false positive, then packets get dropped. If the pattern is just right, then you might be able to make a connection to a site, but not receive data back, leading to a timeout. This doesn't happen very often, but it most closely matches the behavior you're seeing.

If your ISP is the problem, then it isn't affecting all sites. Either your particular ISP has a problem routing to some specific site linked by debatingchristianity.com (an image site, for example, could do it) or its DNS server is serving a bad IP address for the particular site. Trying a different ISP (like from your phone) would eliminate any of those problems. If it's just the DNS problem, though, Google's is generally as reliable as they come.

Finally, that leaves something that your computer is doing completely independent of data transfer, like some weird virus, choking on a script that's present on the page when you're logged in, or a custom privacy configuration in your browser that you don't quite understand. There are so many possibilities here that it's actually the most common problem. Just trying something like a phone would let you know that's the problem.

Good luck. If you're not sure what any of the words mean, feel free to ask. I'll be praying for you.
I'll get to the meat of your post in a later post, but this is really rich...


I've responded to people in the debate portion of the forum that were even less civil than you are, so here you go...
Since I expect that even your observational skills are sufficient to notice the difference between "logged in" and "not logged in,"


Civil? How civil is your comment about my "observational skills"? How is it not "less civil" than anything I've written to you?

Don't get me wrong. I find the single-minded preoccupation with being "civil" much ado about nothing, but this was too rich to let slide.

What makes it even more rich is the fact that otseng "liked" your post instead of posting a "moderator warning".
For otseng: how does this not fall under the following?
1. Personal attacks of any sort are not allowed. Comments about any person that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.
.
.
Violation of any of the above rules will get a Moderator Warning from an administrator/moderator.


For Difflugia: I've run out of time. While I appreciate you taking the time to convey your assessment of the issue, your assessment does have a number of flaws. I'll get to it at a later time.

User avatar
Difflugia
Guru
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 1887 times
Been thanked: 1384 times

Post #17

Post by Difflugia »

WeSee wrote:For Difflugia: I've run out of time. While I appreciate you taking the time to convey your assessment of the issue, your assessment does have a number of flaws. I'll get to it at a later time.
Of course you will. It's quite disheartening when you think you've caught someone in a bluff, but then find out it's not, isn't it?

Oddly enough, your response reminds me of something that happened years ago when I was a software developer for an ISP. The first-tier techs were mostly kids that were computer-savvy, but didn't have any college or specialized training. As long as provisioning customers' accounts went by the script, the kids could handle it, but if anything weird came up, they would pass it up to a second-tier tech or system administrator. It wasn't really in my job description, but the place was perpetually understaffed and I knew enough about database and UNIX system administration to fill in when the various administrators were busy and I wasn't.

So, one of the techs was troubleshooting a problem for a customer and ran across something weird. He asked me about it and it turned out that someone had managed to hack into a poorly-secured customer server that was colocated with us. He had set up a few phishing pages to harvest email addresses that masqueraded as a porn site. I was amazed at the number of .gov and .mil addresses in the collection, but I digress.

I cleaned up the server and closed the security holes (the original one he exploited and a few new ones he'd added). As I was poking around to make sure everything was closed, I found some scripts to automate clicking on ads on a few seemingly random websites. The DNS registrations for those sites all shared a real-sounding name, address, and phone number in Israel. None of the modern hacking laws existed yet, the guy hadn't done any real damage, and my boss was enough of a wild west, live-and-let-live sort that he thought the whole thing was clever and funny. He and I decided to just come in a few hours early the next morning and try calling the guy. To our surprise, he actually answered the phone and spoke English without a noticeable accent. After we told him who we were and why we were calling, he paused for a moment, then dove off into this odd monologue that was both panicked and defiant at the same time. Barely pausing for breath, he rambled between claims that his own computer had been hacked, his identity had been stolen, and we couldn't prove it was him, anyway. The part of that bizarre episode that I'm reminded of by your response was the last thing the guy said to us before he hung up. He said that he "had too many projects going to have the time to deal with" us, but assured us that he would "look through his logs and send us any information he could find" that might help us find the real culprit. Unsurprisingly, we never heard from him again, but since that was our goal in the first place, we chalked the experience up as an entertaining success.

Since you weren't able to either troubleshoot the problem yourself or offer the kind of information that would allow someone else to do so, I really don't expect much in terms of a critique. If you don't mind (or, I guess, even if you do), I'll continue to look forward to having you surprise me, though. It would be fun if you turned the tables back on me, wouldn't it? If you do find the time to answer a single question, though, I'm curious; how many Google searches did it take before it dawned on you that I wasn't just making stuff up?

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Really slow response when logged-in?

Post #18

Post by WeSee »

Reply to latest post by Difflugia

That's quite the rant.

You do seem to have a penchant for drawing illogical conclusions. Not even six hours after I made my post you drew the conclusion that you did?
Since you weren't able to either troubleshoot the problem yourself or offer the kind of information that would allow someone else to do so, I really don't expect much in terms of a critique.
As if I were asked to provide that information. ?????

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re:

Post #19

Post by WeSee »

Tcg wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:06 pm
WeSee wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Tcg]

None of the other sites I visit have this issue. The vast majority respond within a couple of seconds. No others take minutes as it does when I'm logged into this site. No others come even close.

Maybe the trick is to have an "aging laptop"...
Perhaps, but I doubt it. This wasn't presented as a solution to the problem you are experiencing. You have been offered possible solutions, but apparently are hesitant to take any steps to attempt to resolve your issue.

Given that others aren't experiencing the issues you are, there must be something specific to your setup that is the culprit. If you aren't willing to offer any assistance in determining what that is, nothing more can be done for you.


Tcg
Perhaps, but I doubt it.
My comment was facetious

This wasn't presented as a solution to the problem you are experiencing.
Never said it was

You have been offered possible solutions, but apparently are hesitant to take any steps to attempt to resolve your issue.

Actually I haven't. There's a distinction that needs to be made between "possible solutions" and "possible work-arounds".

Given that others aren't experiencing the issues you are, there must be something specific to your setup that is the culprit.
Aa handful of "others" isn't a large enough sample to draw a reasonable conclusion as to wherein the problem lies.

If you aren't willing to offer any assistance in determining what that is, nothing more can be done for you.

I wasn't asked to "offer [my] assistance".

WeSee
Banned
Banned
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re:

Post #20

Post by WeSee »

Difflugia wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:48 pm
WeSee wrote:How unfortunate. You make claims and then are unable to back them up when invited to do so. My hope has been dashed...
You know what? You're right. I've responded to people in the debate portion of the forum that were even less civil than you are, so here you go.

Your slow page rendering is one of five things:
  • Otseng's server is slow to respond
  • A different server is slow to respond (like an ad server)
  • The servers are responding in a timely fashion, but the request is slow to reach them
  • The servers are responding in a timely fashion, but the data aren't making it all the way back to your computer
  • As far as communication is concerned, everything's working fine, but your browser just isn't rendering the page in a timely fashion.
Since nobody else is having problems with the first one, if it's otseng's server, it's something unique to you. The most likely things to make that different would be the user settings. It's possible that your combination of settings would be causing the site's database to do a JOIN on a weird set of tables that takes a long time to return. That's plausible (badly crafted JOIN statements on an SQL database can be NP-hard), but since nobody else has noticed the problem, not likely. I did mention it, though, if you recall.

Since I expect that even your observational skills are sufficient to notice the difference between "logged in" and "not logged in," then you have proven yourself that you can get data from otseng's server. Barring the problematic database query, then, his server isn't the problem.

If you're being at least reasonably honest about the "minutes" you claim, then that means that you're establishing a connection to a server, but the browser is timing out waiting for data to be received. Once again, nobody else has the problem. That points to something in your unique setup. Most likely in my estimation is a firewall problem on your computer, just because there are so many ways for a firewall (particularly the Windows firewall) to screw things up in nonobvious ways by rejecting data, particularly if you have your computer configured to ask you whenever the firewall blocks or allows a new address.

The next likely is if you have a newish router with its own firewall that does packet inspection. If any of the sites that the page requests data from (including otseng's) serves something that, for whatever reason, causes a false positive, then packets get dropped. If the pattern is just right, then you might be able to make a connection to a site, but not receive data back, leading to a timeout. This doesn't happen very often, but it most closely matches the behavior you're seeing.

If your ISP is the problem, then it isn't affecting all sites. Either your particular ISP has a problem routing to some specific site linked by debatingchristianity.com (an image site, for example, could do it) or its DNS server is serving a bad IP address for the particular site. Trying a different ISP (like from your phone) would eliminate any of those problems. If it's just the DNS problem, though, Google's is generally as reliable as they come.

Finally, that leaves something that your computer is doing completely independent of data transfer, like some weird virus, choking on a script that's present on the page when you're logged in, or a custom privacy configuration in your browser that you don't quite understand. There are so many possibilities here that it's actually the most common problem. Just trying something like a phone would let you know that's the problem.

Good luck. If you're not sure what any of the words mean, feel free to ask. I'll be praying for you.
You seem to have lost track of our discussion.
You made the following assertion:
You haven't offered much to go on, but the most likely culprits are your browser, your computer/device, a wifi router's firewall, and your ISP in that order
I responded with the following;
Taking into account all that I've written on this issue, can you take each of the "most likely culprits" in turn and provide a cogent explanation as to why it is "most likely"?
Following are but a few of the flaws in your assessment:

Your assessment does not take into account everything that I had written on this issue, e.g., the issue occurs with two different browsers, the issue does not occur with any other website.

Your assessment does not "take each of the 'most likely culprits' in turn and provide a cogent explanation as to why it is 'most likely'"

Your assessment leans heavily on your assertion that "nobody else is having problems" despite that fact that it is based on only a handful of "others".

Looking at part of what you wrote:
Since nobody else is having problems with the first one, if it's otseng's server, it's something unique to you. The most likely things to make that different would be the user settings. It's possible that your combination of settings would be causing the site's database to do a JOIN on a weird set of tables that takes a long time to return. That's plausible (badly crafted JOIN statements on an SQL database can be NP-hard), but since nobody else has noticed the problem, not likely. I did mention it, though, if you recall.

Since I expect that even your observational skills are sufficient to notice the difference between "logged in" and "not logged in," then you have proven yourself that you can get data from otseng's server. Barring the problematic database query, then, his server isn't the problem.
For one, slow response issues that ultimately are the fault of website are not limited to "problematic database queries".

For another, your query example is logically flawed:
First you posit that it is possible that an unusual combination of user settings for my account might result in a problematic database query that would not occur for other accounts.
Then you conclude that the above is not likely "since nobody else has noticed the problem".
Well, they'd need to have the same unusual combination of user settings for them to have the problem.
For you to then draw the conclusion that you did is nonsensical.

I could go on, but no sense beating a dead horse.

Post Reply