The Ten Commandments

[OnceConvinced]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). That’s 30% of the commandments! Is God’s ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like “thou shalt not covet” which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is…?

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (You’d think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as God’s concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as God’s main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

[I AM ALL I AM]

... and I know my way around Jewish teaching better than you ever will. ...

G'day Cnorman18.

This is a pretty bold statement.

Do you:

1. Have any proof to the veracity of this statement ???

Sure. RND has made it very clear that he has no interest whatever in learning what Jewish teachings actually are, and considers the Bible - or more properly, his idiosyncratic and frankly ignorant interpretation of the Bible - to be all the information he needs to make pronouncements about the True Religion and the will of God. Therefore, the statement that I know more about Jewish teachings than he ever will seems like a reasonable prediction to me.

I freely admit that I might be wrong, but since that was intended to be more of a rhetorical flourish than a statement of absolute fact, and I think rather clearly so, that doesn't trouble me much.

2. Claim to know the future and what a given person will or won't know ???

See above. And lighten up. I'm talking to (on the subject of Judaic knowledge) an arrogant, sectarian ignoramus, not a serious student of the Jewish religion.

Or is this part of a superiority complex that creeps out when you are questioned about the Judaic cult that you promote ???

Do you have any evidence that I have ever claimed to be "superior" to anyone? I am talking about knowledge, not character, intelligence, morality, or anything else.

Do you have any evidence that I am 'promoting" anything? I have gone on the record many, many times that I am here to inform only, not to proselytize.

Do you care to examine the connotations of the word cult, and present any evidence you have that proves that Judaism is a cult as opposed to a religion, a culture, a community, or any of the other things it is commonly said to be?

If you are going to carefully parse the statements of others, prepare to have the same treatment applied to your own.

G'day Cnorman18.

A "reasonable prediction" is not proof of anything let alone what the future may hold. So far you haven't leant any veracity to your statement and the rest of your reply doesn't either. If you are unable to provide proof would you please retract the statement as it is false and derogatory ???

As to the comment, "True Religion", does this mean that you believe Judaism to be a THE "True Religion" and therefore categorise all other religions as 'False Religions' ???

As you have made this statement of Judaism being the "True Religion", would you please provide your proof that this is indeed the case and that all other religions are false.

As to your comment being a "rhetorical flourish", it actually comes across (based on the wording that you have chosen to use) as an attempted 'put down' of RND, much in the same way that "an arrogant, sectarian ignoramus" is, and an attempt to make yourself appear superior to RND.

I am also wondering why you are telling me to "lighten up". Do you think that I am heavy ???

Or are you attempting to make it appear that I am angry, disgruntled, or otherwise upset, in an attempt to misdirect attention away from your obvious attempted 'put down' of RND ???

Actually, why are you telling me what to do at all ???

The "evidence" is in the words that you chose to use when replying to RND that I quoted. The words "better than" are an obvious attempt at claiming superiority over someone else.

Your above comments about Judaism being the "True Religion" will suffice for your obvious promoting of your religious cult.

Can you quote me at all having stated that you are here to "proselytize" ???

You can read below the warning signs of what a cult is, which Judaism falls into the parameters of.

You belong to a cult that promotes the mutilation of the male genitalia of it's members because, apparently, 'God' decided that it was necessary. Who is this 'God' that has decided for countless males that it is necessary to mutilate their genitalia because 'He' made a COVENent with one person ???

It is obviously a barbaric ritual and yet you call it the "True Religion and the will of God". Have you ever questioned why an apparently all-powerful 'God' would require the mutilation of the male genitalia and if so, how do you reconcile your 'God' being the cause of countless males having their genitalia mutilated ???

Furthermore, can you provide proof that the Judaic 'God' that you claim to follow is other than the fantastical imaginings of man ???

If not, why do you continually refer to something that is imaginary ???

THE WARNING SIGNS:

1. The spiritual group claims to have received special instructions from one or more "messengers from the sky."

2. The spiritual group uses a special set of rules that you must obey or be cast out.

3. The spiritual group promises eternal life in a paradise if you obey its set of rules, and threatens eternal suffering if you do not obey its set of rules.

4. The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible.

5. The members of the spiritual group call each other "brother" and "sister," even when they aren't related at all.

6. The spiritual group is led by a group of enlightened masters who wear strange clothes and speak in esoteric parables.

7. The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.

8. The spiritual group demands that you select your spouse and your closest friends from its membership.

9. The spiritual group demands that you place your children in its training program.

10. The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future.

http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/cults.html

[RND]

I was referring to your own apparent claim that your own beliefs are the True Religion. Judaism makes no such claim.

I've never wavered in my claim brother. There is only one place to find the word of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This word was rejected by Jewry which led to the scattering of the ten northern tribes and the eventual captivity of the Levites, Bejamites and those of Judah in Babylon.

Accurate.

Only in your world.

You have dismissed Jewish teaching, while clearly knowing virtually nothing of it, as irrelevant nonsense. Therefore you have no intention of learning anything about that which you dismiss.

Actually you have that backwards. I have dismissed "Rabbinic Tulmudism" because I do know about it.

No. Pointing it out.

Same thing.

At least we agree on your attitude and the extent of your knowledge about Judaism.

Brother if you think your brand of "Rabbinic Tulmudism" is found in the pages of the Torah and Tanakh you'd only be right in considering the rebuke of it in the pages of the Torah and Tanakh.

That is impossible.

If you dismiss Judaism as "wife's tale [sic] and superstitions," you can hardly be a serious student of it.

Brother, you missed the point. The "Hebraic" is not the same as your modern brabd of Judaism. In fact it's like night and day.

If you are proposing something other than Judaism as the "Hebraic Religion," you are making up a religion that does not otherwise exist.

Brother, who was released from captivity in Egypt? "Jews" or "Hebrews?"

In either case, I see no particular reason to debate you. You may believe what you want, and you have no authority or warrant whatever to pass judgment on that about which you know nothing; therefore I shall feel free to ignore whatever you have to say, but still to take exception when you post falsehoods about the teachings of the Jewish faitn.

Hey, suit yourself. But you've revealed much more about what you believe than I have.

What is it? Please post your evidence.

It's already been posted and questioned.

I'm talking about your arrogantly presuming to pass judgment on teachings with which you are not familiar, dismissing beliefs which do not match your own in a sectarian manner, and claiming knowledge which you do not possess and of which you are therefore ignorant. Nothing more.

You can be of sterling character, very intelligent, and moral to the core, and still do all those things. That phrase was not an insult, but an objective and accurate description of your attitude and level of knowledge about Judaism.

It was name calling, pure and simple.

I was talking about your claims. Not mine.

You do claim that your understanding of the Bible is the only proper and correct one, the True Religion, and that other beliefs - and Judaism in particular - are "wife's tale [sic] and superstitions," do you not?

Nope, sorry brother, I made no such claims. I simply said that anything outside of the Torah and Tanakh is of man's tradition.

I said connotations.

Brother the connotation of a cult is that it is "a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies"

Let's look a little farther down on the same page, here, where you found that definition:

6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

In context, this is rather obviously closer to I AM's intended meaning than the definition you cited. The connotations of the world "cult' inarguably include #6 as well as #1, and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. You don't get to imply that a belief is baloney and then back away and claim that you merely meant that it's a religion.

The last time I checked 1 comes before 6.

No problem.

A few questions, just for clarity:

(1) Do you not claim to know and understand the teachings of rabbinic Judaism, at least to the extent necessary to declare them largely false?

As compared to the Torah and Tanakh, the Gospels and the Epistles? Yes.

(2) Do you not claim that your understanding and application of the Bible are truer and more accurate than the teachings of rabbinic Judaism?

Yes, by far.

(3) Do you not contend that rabbinic Judaism consists of the false and impious teachings of men and is therefore a false religion?

You should look into rephrasing that question counselor. But yes, I do believe "that rabbinic Judaism consists of the false and impious teachings of men and is therefore a false religion."

(4) Do you not claim that your understanding of the Bible and the will of God is the one, true, and proper understanding of same and incumbent upon all humans to believe and follow?

Of course.

If I am wrong about any of these, I humbly apologize.

Tell it to God, repent.

If not, I stand by everything I have said and have nothing more to add.

That two times you've said that. Do you mean it this time?

Have you noticed that not once have you tried to convince me of the truth of "Rabbinic Talmudism?" Not once? Or how it is in harmony and not in opposition with scripture? The fact that you believe that "Rabbinic Talmudism" is above and beyong the Torah and Tanakh is all the proof I need that you consider it above the Inspired word of God.

[RND]

G'day Cnorman18.

A "reasonable prediction" is not proof of anything let alone what the future may hold. So far you haven't leant any veracity to your statement and the rest of your reply doesn't either. If you are unable to provide proof would you please retract the statement as it is false and derogatory ???

As to the comment, "True Religion", does this mean that you believe Judaism to be a THE "True Religion" and therefore categorise all other religions as 'False Religions' ???

As you have made this statement of Judaism being the "True Religion", would you please provide your proof that this is indeed the case and that all other religions are false.

As to your comment being a "rhetorical flourish", it actually comes across (based on the wording that you have chosen to use) as an attempted 'put down' of RND, much in the same way that "an arrogant, sectarian ignoramus" is, and an attempt to make yourself appear superior to RND.

I am also wondering why you are telling me to "lighten up". Do you think that I am heavy ???

Or are you attempting to make it appear that I am angry, disgruntled, or otherwise upset, in an attempt to misdirect attention away from your obvious attempted 'put down' of RND ???

Actually, why are you telling me what to do at all ???

The "evidence" is in the words that you chose to use when replying to RND that I quoted. The words "better than" are an obvious attempt at claiming superiority over someone else.

Your above comments about Judaism being the "True Religion" will suffice for your obvious promoting of your religious cult.

Can you quote me at all having stated that you are here to "proselytize" ???

You can read below the warning signs of what a cult is, which Judaism falls into the parameters of.

You belong to a cult that promotes the mutilation of the male genitalia of it's members because, apparently, 'God' decided that it was necessary. Who is this 'God' that has decided for countless males that it is necessary to mutilate their genitalia because 'He' made a COVENent with one person ???

It is obviously a barbaric ritual and yet you call it the "True Religion and the will of God". Have you ever questioned why an apparently all-powerful 'God' would require the mutilation of the male genitalia and if so, how do you reconcile your 'God' being the cause of countless males having their genitalia mutilated ???

Furthermore, can you provide proof that the Judaic 'God' that you claim to follow is other than the fantastical imaginings of man ???

If not, why do you continually refer to something that is imaginary ???

THE WARNING SIGNS:

1. The spiritual group claims to have received special instructions from one or more "messengers from the sky."

2. The spiritual group uses a special set of rules that you must obey or be cast out.

3. The spiritual group promises eternal life in a paradise if you obey its set of rules, and threatens eternal suffering if you do not obey its set of rules.

4. The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible.

5. The members of the spiritual group call each other "brother" and "sister," even when they aren't related at all.

6. The spiritual group is led by a group of enlightened masters who wear strange clothes and speak in esoteric parables.

7. The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.

8. The spiritual group demands that you select your spouse and your closest friends from its membership.

9. The spiritual group demands that you place your children in its training program.

10. The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future.

http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/cults.html

Nice thoughts and thanks for your clarity. Sometimes when people or their arguments are exposed to the light of day and shown to be incorrect as I have exposed cnorman then the only thing to do is to lash out and attack. Just exactly as one would expect a "cornered bear" to do.

I started out in this thread questioning the obvious misunderstanding of the Torah that cnorman had previously posted and the fallacy of his arguments using the very words of that same Torah to show him just exactly how misguided he is. Whenever this is done, when the light of truth shines in the darkness the nature of man is truly exposed.

Thanks again I AM ALL I AM for you insight and willingness to state what you have witnessed.

I've been here less than two days and the mantra of this thread, "Respectful Religious Debate," has been hard to find so far.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Nice thoughts and thanks for your clarity. Sometimes when people or their arguments are exposed to the light of day and shown to be incorrect as I have exposed cnorman then the only thing to do is to lash out and attack. Just exactly as one would expect a "cornered bear" to do.

I started out in this thread questioning the obvious misunderstanding of the Torah that cnorman had previously posted and the fallacy of his arguments using the very words of that same Torah to show him just exactly how misguided he is. Whenever this is done, when the light of truth shines in the darkness the nature of man is truly exposed.

Thanks again I AM ALL I AM for you insight and willingness to state what you have witnessed.

I've been here less than two days and the mantra of this thread, "Respectful Religious Debate," has been hard to find so far.

G'day RND.

You are welcome mate.

To let you know, I am not religious and do not believe in any 'God(s)', so while I may disagree with you on religious matters, I can obviously see a 'put down' when one is posted and am willing to speak out about it. This would be as true if you were to do the same as Cnorman18 has done.

[cnorman18]

I think I've already made it clear that my remarks about the "One True Religion" were about RND's views and not about Judaism. I see no need to respond further to an obvious misunderstanding, or possibly a deliberate distortion.

RND has answered all four of my final questions in the affirmative, and thereby proven the truth of everything I have said, including my descriptions of him.

I also decline to defend the ancient practice of circumcision, which is medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial, a matter of tradition and not necessarily of Divine command, and not subject to the judgment of those who do not practice it.

(My usual response to such nonsense is, "Circumcision? Circumcision? That's all you've got? That's the big beef against Jews? That's the big wow? Give me a break. Why not pierced ears? Why not, oh, I don't know, maybe suicide bombing as a religious ideal?")

It is true I have not convinced anyone of the truth of rabbinic Judaism; but then I have stated from my first post here, more than a year ago, that that was not and is not my intention.

I explain, I do not promote; and I have no obligation nor intent to prove anything to or convince anybody - particularly those who smear, misstate, misrepresent, and are willfully ignorant of the teachings and principles of the Jewish religion.

I also have to wonder how anyone could think that "Everything you believe is a load of crap and I know better" is NOT a putdown, while taking exception to that sort of thing somehow is.

For that matter, "You have one, singular, tradition and practice that I find objectionable, therefore your entire religion is primitive barbarism" strikes me as a bit of a putdown too.

I see no need to participate any further in this thread. Pontification is not debate; neither is bigoted polemic and smear.

Believe what you like. So will I.

[RND]

I think I've already made it clear that my remarks about the "One True Religion" were about RND's views and not about Judaism. I see no need to respond further to an obvious misunderstanding, or possibly a deliberate distortion.

There is but one true religion and but one True God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, His Son and His Holy Spirit. The "religion" that is the "One True Religion" is the "religion" that accepts this as described clearly in the Torah and Tanakh.

RND has answered all four of my final questions in the affirmative, and thereby proven the truth of everything I have said, including my descriptions of him.

I answered in the affirmative because you are saying that modern day Judaism is the one true religion.

I also decline to defend the ancient practice of circumcision, which is medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial, a matter of tradition and not necessarily of Divine command, and not subject to the judgment of those who do not practice it.

What good is physical circumcision when the heart is made of stone?

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

(My usual response to such nonsense is, "Circumcision? Circumcision? That's all you've got? That's the big beef against Jews? That's the big wow? Give me a break. Why not pierced ears? Why not, oh, I don't know, maybe suicide bombing as a religious ideal?")

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

It is true I have not convinced anyone of the truth of rabbinic Judaism; but then I have stated from my first post here, more than a year ago, that that was not and is not my intention.

Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.

I explain, I do not promote; and I have no obligation nor intent to prove anything to or convince anybody - particularly those who smear, misstate, misrepresent, and are willfully ignorant of the teachings and principles of the Jewish religion.

You haven't even done this.

I also have to wonder how anyone could think that "Everything you believe is a load of crap and I know better" is NOT a putdown, while taking exception to that sort of thing somehow is.

Brother, no one said that. Use the Torah and the Tankh to make your arguments, that's all.

For that matter, "You have one, singular, tradition and practice that I find objectionable, therefore your entire religion is primitive barbarism" strikes me as a bit of a putdown too.

Why not try to explain your position then?

I see no need to participate any further in this thread. Pontification is not debate; neither is bigoted polemic and smear.

Well, you should be prepared to heed to your own advice.

Believe what you like. So will I.

Thanks! [/quote]

[Cathar1950]

There is but one true religion and but one True God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, His Son and His Holy Spirit. The "religion" that is the "One True Religion" is the "religion" that accepts this as described clearly in the Torah and Tanakh.

I know what some people mean when they say that but I have no idea what you might mean as so far you seem to have a rather esoteric interpretation and you could mean just about anything, and many do. You are just one more making a claim that you know the ultimate “but one true religion and but one True God�.
The you claim the one true God is El “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob� that some Moses stories say was Yahweh which you idendity with some Obscure “His Son and His Holy Spirit�. Obscurest love the ritual of cherry picking.

.

What good is physical circumcision when the heart is made of stone?

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Is that just for Jews or Jews that disagree with you?
Tell me do you think that was implying every Jews is and was stiff necked or just then and now?

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

What does this got to do with anything?
Are you suggesting someone has a heart made of stone? Is this meant for everyone that doesn’t believe the way you do or interpret and read the writings the way you?
Or is this just meant for Jews that disagree with how you see yours and their religion and judge theirs by your standard?

Brother, no one said that. Use the Torah and the Tankh to make your arguments, that's all.

Why would you assume you had to limit yourself to just those writings? Why even consider them?

[RND]

I know what some people mean when they say that but I have no idea what you might mean as so far you seem to have a rather esoteric interpretation and you could mean just about anything, and many do. You are just one more making a claim that you know the ultimate “but one true religion and but one True God�.

Just how exact can I be?

Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.

Elohiym said....

As a Jew have you completely rejected the Torah?

The you claim the one true God is El “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob� that some Moses stories say was Yahweh which you idendity with some Obscure “His Son and His Holy Spirit�. Obscurest love the ritual of cherry picking.

Not "El" but "Elohiym." God times 2.

What does this got to do with anything?

Nothing if you haven't read the post.

Are you suggesting someone has a heart made of stone? Is this meant for everyone that doesn’t believe the way you do or interpret and read the writings the way you?

What does the Torah say?

Or is this just meant for Jews that disagree with how you see yours and their religion and judge theirs by your standard?

I know plenty of Jews that feel the way I do and see things the way I do. I share shabbat with them on occasion.

Why would you assume you had to limit yourself to just those writings?

Are you aware of any other Torah spoken of by the Lord God of Israel?

Why even consider them?

Truth probably. [/quote]

[FinalEnigma]

RND, can you clear something up for me? You said this-

Don't get me started on Christianity! They are just as far away, if not even farther than "Jews," in regards to the Hebraic roots of the Bible.

But you're a christian. In your introduction thread, you identified yourself as a 7th day Adventist. I don't understand.

[RND]

RND, can you clear something up for me? You said this-

Don't get me started on Christianity! They are just as far away, if not even farther than "Jews," in regards to the Hebraic roots of the Bible.

But you're a christian. In your introduction thread, you identified yourself as a 7th day Adventist. I don't understand.

What can I help you understand? Is there something specific?

Christianity, throughout it's history has done it's best to separate itself from it's Hebrew roots especially through the treatment of groups that hold differing views from mainstream Christianity. For example Christianity has done well in persecuting those of a minority (sic) "heretical" view.

Now the favorite of Christianity is the insistence of, "We're not under the law, we're under grace" which perverts both the meaning of the law, and the intention of the law.

There is an old saying that says "those that don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it." The Children of Israel were thrust into captivity because they ignored the law, statutes and ordinances of God in favor of following after other God's. This is happening to modern day Christianity.

Christianity, and more specifically Protestantism, lost every opportunity they had to become separate and true light bearers when the law of God was rejected at Trent.