Homosexuality: A chosen trait, or gentetically aquired?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This question is a major underlying factor of the general homosexual debate, the answer of which can narrow the scope in questioning its morality.



Are people born gay, or do they choose to be?
Can someone be blamed for their sexual orientation, or is it subject to factors we have no control over?

[mishi]

Can someone please explain to me how homosexuality could possibly be a choice when heterosexuality isn't? If homosexuality is indeed a choice, then that would make heterosexuality a choice also as it would be the other option when it comes to your sexuality...but i for one, at least, am unable to remember the day i was given such a choice. Anyone else remember how they came to be attracted to one particular sex rather than the other (or both, for that matter)?

[Nirvana-Eld]

So I just bought my favorite book of the month. Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity by John Stossel. Absolutely excellent. He takes a common belief and concicely shows how it is either true or untrue. So anyway there is one topic concerning Homosexuality and it goes...

Myth: Experts can cure homosexuality.
Truth: Experts delude themsleves.

Basically it claims that programs such as Exodus and most others simply have a program that "prays out the gay". But the then chariman of the Exodus movement, John Paulk, was seen walking out of a gay bar late one night... said he was "checking out the scene".... right. But also it goes on to say that the tactics used by these programs are "phsycologically and emotionally repressive". You really have to read that one part of the book, its really eye opening. I just thought that would be an interesting addition to this thread.

[Cathar1950]

I think it is sad that he has to go cruising for guys in bars. If they did that in medical practice (pray it out) they would be brought up on charges. But if some "former" gay says you can pray it out then it is ok even if it didnt work.

[scorpia]

I suppose it's possible, although I'm not sure how a specific prejudice could be encoded into one's DNA unless it had some evolutionary advantage.

I'd like to know how religions are also caused by genetics after someone suggested it to me.

Can someone please explain to me how homosexuality could possibly be a choice when heterosexuality isn't?

It is a choice, heterosexuality is. At least for me it is.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

But what if............ homophobia was a genetic trait? What if people had no control over this phobia?

Homophobia is not a conscious choice (as far as I'm concerned, nothing is, as you well know by now).

I would envision that homophobia is more a matter of environmental factors. For example, if you are exposed to a smaller scope of ideas as a child, newer concepts (such as the phenomena of homosexuality) will come about as more of a shock when you are older. Most homophobes are Conservatives, and most Conservatives are bred in a Conservative family setting.

I'd like to know how religions are also caused by genetics after someone suggested it to me.

Some genes cause one to direct their perceptions more towards unseen spiritual factors rather than strictly the material. This has actually been scientifically verified, I do believe. A while back they cited a particular genetic combination found almost exclusively in devout worshipers.

Your surroundings also play a factor, of course. Religion and beliefs tend to run in the family (which is why you see no Muslims in America- there has never really been any major migrations here from the Middle East).

It is a choice, heterosexuality is. At least for me it is.

You chose to like guys?

[scorpia]

Homophobia is not a conscious choice (as far as I'm concerned, nothing is, as you well know by now).

I would envision that homophobia is more a matter of environmental factors. For example, if you are exposed to a smaller scope of ideas as a child, newer concepts (such as the phenomena of homosexuality) will come about as more of a shock when you are older. Most homophobes are Conservatives, and most Conservatives are bred in a Conservative family setting.

This negates such factors as non-Christian people who are homophobic, or at least feel some degree of disturbance at the idea.

Granted there would be cases where environmental factors would be the cause. But I would say the same for anyone who is gay. What about them?

Some genes cause one to direct their perceptions more towards unseen spiritual factors rather than strictly the material. This has actually been scientifically verified, I do believe. A while back they cited a particular genetic combination found almost exclusively in devout worshipers.

And what if it so happens that genetics causes a person to lean towards the more bigotted point of view? Would that make it okay?

You chose to like guys?

No, no. You see, with a bit of effort, I can choose not to (like guys).

[The Happy Humanist]

You chose to like guys?

No, no. You see, with a bit of effort, I can choose not to (like guys).

So you believe that, against all social norms, homosexuals make an effort to prefer the same gender.

Fascinating.

Furthermore, how would you know that you can, with a bit of effort, choose not to prefer males? Unless at some point you either made that effort, or discovered a latent tendency towards females? In the case of the former, may your God forgive you. In the case of the latter, may you forgive your God for making it possible & then proscribing against it. I sure won't forgive him.

[Grumpy]

mishi

Can someone please explain to me how homosexuality could possibly be a choice when heterosexuality isn't? If homosexuality is indeed a choice, then that would make heterosexuality a choice also as it would be the other option when it comes to your sexuality...but i for one, at least, am unable to remember the day i was given such a choice. Anyone else remember how they came to be attracted to one particular sex rather than the other (or both, for that matter)?

Sorry, mishi, no one can explain that to you because it isn't true. The idea that someone chooses to get beat up in High School, condemned by bigots and generally dumped on by most of society is just not credible. If gays could choose they would almost all choose not to be different from you or I, ask them, they will tell you that themselves. The pressures on them are so great that teen gays kill themselves in much greater numbers than their straight peers, and when they come to places(like SF) that accept them as they are they go a little overboard(Gay Pride Parades,promiscuity, etc.)

The bottom line is that a percentage of the population is gay(something under 10%). Twin studies show between 35% and 54% of the pairs are both gay if one is, about what is expected(50%) if heredity is a large factor in what causes the condition(the recent studies of birth order/mother's antibodies may be the trigger that determines if the "gay gene" is expressed or not???). Despite what religionists try to say, it is not a condition which can be changed(though anyone can change their behavior, with varying sucess), nor should it be. We need to learn to treat gays with the same respect we expect to be treated with(Do unto others...)

Grumpy

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This negates such factors as non-Christian people who are homophobic, or at least feel some degree of disturbance at the idea.

I didn't limit my argument to the religious. One can be raised in a conservative setting without being exposed to religion.

Granted there would be cases where environmental factors would be the cause. But I would say the same for anyone who is gay. What about them?

I consider homosexuality a combination of factors. That is, they have a genetic malfunction that surfaces under certain childhood conditions.

Any way you look at it, there is still no choice involved.

And what if it so happens that genetics causes a person to lean towards the more bigotted point of view? Would that make it okay?

Not "okay", but not necessarily reprehensible either. Merely unfortunate.

Society's proper response to biggotry and other such vices (murder and rape included) should not be blind reprehension. The best course of action is to eliminate the conditions under which such beliefs and behavior arise.

In this case, informing. Gay and lesbian sympathizers must demonstrate to the largely uninformed world that there is nothing inherently dangerous in homosexual behavior. When that happens, this silly sexual orientation war will finally cease.

"Hate only exists where there is no understanding": an accurate (albiet cheesy) rule of thumb.

[melikio]

Grumpy has it right.

I would not have chosen a homosexual-orientation.

And I DID experiment on the other side of the fence; it didn't even feel "natural" to me, not a bit.

Also, the idea that homosexual people do not know the "morality" which many interpret from the Bible and pull from tradition, is bogus. Of course, most every one of us already KNOW what the average "Christian" and/or "homophobe" is going to say about homosexuality. And it's not that homosexuals have been frightened half to death over the period of their lifetimes; they know what it is to be hated (for NO good reasons) at the most early ages. Most of us hid it out of FEAR, not shame. Shame is what many of us tried using to CHANGE what we later accepted (we are homosexuals).

And just as we learned that there is no real "shame" in it, many of us consequently realized that there was nothing to be particularly "proud" about either. Most of us can/do fit right in with the rest of society period. And yeah, there are those who hate homosexuals enough, to make some bizzare "sport" out of trying to flush us OUT of the norm.

I think it will eventually be understood and accepted that it definitely isn't chosen; and that there are myriad factors involved which give each person the particular sexual propensity they possess (not ALL physical and not ALL psychological); I don't have a clue about what proportions will apply.

I can relate to some Christians not accepting homosexual acts, but I cannot abide the mistreatment and outright rejection of those people who happen to be homosexual. If it truly is "God's will", then He has a lifetime of explaining to do, so that my mind will understand why nothing I did as a Christian or human being, would actually change (or fix) what so many believed represented a broken or abnormal person.

I think that science is on the right track with this (just as it was about the "flat" earth of the past). I respect the notion or belief that the Bible contains truth, but I don't accept the type of handling of homosexuals, which far too many "Christians" think is appropriate or justified.

Much of what those opposed to homosexuals try to do TO homosexuals, appears to be done out of ignorance and unfortunately the FEAR and HATRED that follows the ignorance.

Be all that as it may, my direct answer is that few (if none) choose their sexual-orientation. And yes, most normal people can control the urges they encounter (within reason). Just as most heterosexual people are tempted throughout their lives, so it is with homosexual people; but they will likely never be capable of turning OFF their homosexuality or switching it to heterosexuality.

Finally, it is interesting that some people claim that it is "children" they care most about in all of this. But the fact remains (just as I myself experienced as a child), that children DO deal with these feeling at very early ages. I remember how I had to struggle harder as a pre and early teenager, than at almost any other point in my life. The next hardest point in life what realizing that "God" wouldn't "change" something I'd sought so hard to change, and wished to change with all the desire I could muster. And the foolishness of many "Christians", is that they are encountering MANY who have been where I'm describing. They don't consciously consider just where people have been or what they've been through. They come with their biblical verses (that we've heard thousands of times, to no avail), and they typically show that they cannot even be compassionate, beyond the tossing-over of the few biblical verses they use more as an "repellent", than as a message of reconciliation and love. They group ALL homosexual people into one monolithic group ("sodomites", "deviants", and other more deragatory nomenclatures), all the while doing nothing to HELP (but instead taking their own ignorance, fear, hatred and frustration, directing at what they view as the "problem"...(homosexuals).

It would be better that most "Christians" (and other religious folks) realize this (internally) and initiate the changes within their various religious cultures; but I can see where a crisis (or a series of crises) will be the catalyst for changing things. Again, not that homosexuality must be encouraged and/or "celebrated" (as John says), but that homosexuals not be looked upon as less-than-human, or LESS WORTHY of the concept of "Christian" grace as ALL other human beings (as indicated in John 3:16).

Again, for the record: I didn't choose my sexual-orientation; with very little doubt, I can say that it chose me.

-Mel-