Homosexuality: A chosen trait, or gentetically aquired?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This question is a major underlying factor of the general homosexual debate, the answer of which can narrow the scope in questioning its morality.



Are people born gay, or do they choose to be?
Can someone be blamed for their sexual orientation, or is it subject to factors we have no control over?

[melikio]

While there will always be those who support one sole model of causation, most concede that many factors are involved. Heredity, environment and personal choice all play a part. This should leave us with a humble and open attitude, willing to learn more from scientific research and the testimony of skilled counsellors and gay people.

http://www.cmf.org.uk/literature/conten ... cle&id=630

Still, a more conservative view that makes far more sense than the crap I so often hear, which does nothing but cause people to hate homosexuals and sometimes causes homosexuals to hate themselves.

-Mel-

[scorpia]

You think/say homosexuality is a "choice", but I ask you to PROVE IT. (Isn't that fair and reasonable to ask?)

Celibay exists, doesn't it? And no, i'm not necessarily talking about a bunch of priests.

[melikio]

Celibay exists, doesn't it? And no, i'm not necessarily talking about a bunch of priests.

So, you believe this leads to unequivocal "proof", that one's sexual-orientation is chosen?

-Mel-

[scorpia]

Not necessarily that it was, but that it can be.

[melikio]

Not necessarily that it was, but that it can be.

I would say that there are many possibilities; and a range of factors so myriad, that no one should believe they can jump to any given conclusion on behalf of someone else period.

Far too many who have a little knowledge or a little religion, seem to want to make amazingly difficult decisions for others and come to certain conclusions that are certainly better left between God and the "individual", that some 3rd-party agent who really doesn't know what's in a person's heart/mind.

If one is truly a person of faith, God's providence certainly has some place in all of this. While some can go from straight to gay, and others vice versa, we are still dealing with something so deep into a person, that it cannot likely be as simple as some wish to believe it is. If that's hard to understand, then talk to more than a few homosexual people (especially ones who have struggled) and see what they've had to deal with over a lifetime. If you decide to take the plunge and listen, you'd better be truly compassionate, patient and attentive, or else you'll just be wasting time.

-Mel-

[Wyvern]

You think/say homosexuality is a "choice", but I ask you to PROVE IT. (Isn't that fair and reasonable to ask?)

Celibacy exists, doesn't it? And no, i'm not necessarily talking about a bunch of priests.

Celibacy is a choice to not engage in sex at all, sometimes this even isn't a choice. Just saying no to sex does not take away from the sexual orientation of the person. Even a person that has no sex life still has a sexual attraction towards others depending on their orientation, desire for sex is pretty much hardwired into all creatures. This is why hetero/homosexuality is not a choice, certainly it is possible to deny those urges but it is rather irrational to expect all homosexuals to do so simply because you and people like you don't like it.

[melikio]

Celibacy is a choice to not engage in sex at all, sometimes this even isn't a choice. Just saying no to sex does not take away from the sexual orientation of the person. Even a person that has no sex life still has a sexual attraction towards others depending on their orientation, desire for sex is pretty much hardwired into all creatures. This is why hetero/homosexuality is not a choice, certainly it is possible to deny those urges but it is rather irrational to expect all homosexuals to do so simply because you and people like you don't like it.

It's really interesting how you can say this so clearly; it is very "clear" and "true" (provable). What's most interesting is the contrast it represents, to other positions, where some fearful people will perform near-tribal gyrations around what you have so eloquently expressed, rather than honestly consider what you've said.

Science IS investigating this heavily right now. But even without considering science for the moment, it should be as clear to others as you express it above; but it isn't.

And I know why that is, but it is hard for many to accept period. The "truth" will tend to place their relgious apperceptions and paradigms into a crucible; comfort and convenience WILL be displaced (not lost). Few are willing to ask the kinds of questions which science tends to dive right into. And while I've never been an opponent of "faith" or "religion" overall, real fluctuations in my "faith", have caused openings for queries which I do not regret. Admittedly, it is distrubing when something we've believed "slips" or "shifts", but this sexual thing is like an anchor to so many Christians.

I think/believe science will be trickling out the answers on this over time. And as people understand and accept the data over time (just as in "biblical" reserach i.e. archeology...etc.), people will understand more from newer and more accurate perspectives. Not an abbandonment of "faith", but (as history has shown us) an adjustment to the "beliefs" which exist.

If I were a baseball pitcher, and average Christians were batters, they would be scoring few run for their side. Just the number of people who have misjudged me ALONE, reflects the dismal failures in understanding homosexuality that I've witnessed many times over many decades. People do NOT understand the nature of homosexuality as well as they imagine. The problems tend to manifest themselves when those inaccurate views lead to stereotypes, fears and hatred; which it cannot be denied closely surround this topic.

We could argue this for many posts to come, but I'm fairly confident that more understanding and tolerance will come as a result of better knowledge of what we are all dealing with as it relates to homosexuality.

-Mel-

[scorpia]

Celibacy is a choice to not engage in sex at all, sometimes this even isn't a choice. Just saying no to sex does not take away from the sexual orientation of the person. Even a person that has no sex life still has a sexual attraction towards others depending on their orientation,

You might have had a point. Hey, I don't know how far it all goes among different people and I don't have some magic machine that can look into people's heads. BUT;

desire for sex is pretty much hardwired into all creatures.

Yeah but it doesn't necessarily get very far. All it is is a silly program made to con you into reproducing that bosses you around and I take it that most people at some point in their lives are able to push it out if they want to like getting rid of so many pop-up ads.

certainly it is possible to deny those urges

Which is what I'm on about

but it is rather irrational to expect all homosexuals to do so simply because you and people like you don't like it.

I had already posted;

Besides, it is their choice. I'm not arguing that their choices should be made for them. just that they have one.

[melikio]

Is there a gene for celibacy?

I know celibacy is fine; I've experienced long periods of it most of my life. The biggest problem is with those who are unrealistic in their demanding it of others. I don't see where "Christianity" is this control-measure which some tend to apply it as being; that's not what it should be used as.

Still, celibacy it's not easy (in fact, it can be excruciatingly difficult, period), and we don't need overly-pious Christians running around touting it as if no one else sees the value of it in this world. Much less, do we need some misguided Christians overstepping their bounds, trying to ENFORCE what they believe is "right" for another person.

I always find it amazing how some can find the nerve to call anyone else to a lifetime of celibacy, while they pose as if controlling their own sexuality has been this "by-the-numbers", super-ordered thing.

Lots of people know what the Bible says about many things (according to their understanding and interpretations of it), but I doubt that ANYONE has been such perfection that no one could question their "morality" (and likely find some fault or transgression). Now, some people are quick to admit they aren't perfect, but they are painfully slow to show compassion for many who haven't quite reached the level of perfection they themselves seem to have attained.

Oh the years, I had to quietly listen to HORNY heterosexual Christians put down "gay" people, while all they would do was size up potential "mates" during the church services and after. Sex was such a massive deal for them, and it was ALL fine, as long as nothing could be stamped "homosexual". Meanwhile, I struggled with just finding ONE person I could trust with what I knew about myself. I will never forget that day a girl showed interest in me at church, and because of all the negative HYPE, I couldn't even tell her why I wouldn't respond. Sure, I had some super-veneered answer for her (silence in that case), but it would have been BETTER to tell her I was a homosexual. And although I was then as celibate as could be, I couldn't even tell her what was going on; it wasn't worth the attention or having my life turned upside down (due to the negative hype many enjoy so much).

So, WHEN will the day come, when the homosexual person who struggles, is as accepted as the heterosexual person who has "repented" of vile acts repeatedly throughout their lives? When? When will the guy who gives his testimony about his/her drunken life, be followed by the person who "resisted" being horny/lonely for months at a time? Is cold and distant silence what "Christians" expect homosexual people to live in? So, whether this is genetically acquired or not, the answers garnered and applied need to reflect the "humanity" of those homosexual people who must live on this same planet with heterosexuals (Christians or otherwise).

You see, I know with Jesus that time (understanding, compassion, tolerance, "love") is NOW, but with mankind, it apparently has to be "proven" how human something is, before sinners are actually allowed (or afforded) the tolerance and compassion Jesus said should be "standard" (due to His sacrifice); some people turn love into a joke. People are so full of useless POSING (including many Christians); love cannot be hoarded, and then rationed out according to our own wills... some people just cannot see/value that and it makes them such dogmatic-zealots overall.

So, I can understand a heterosexual Christian (and others) being interested in the question such as the one in the OP, but I have to honestly emphasize that certain answers can/do seem rather generic, unwise or even meaningless to someone who lives (daily) what others are trying to get the most basic understanding of; it's a bit like a pre-schooler, telling a college professor about education in general.

Be all that as it may, the best Christians can do is to set an example, and say what they mean... but stop trying to "control" (dictate) the lives of other people; that isn't what Christianity is about (as far as I can tell).

-Mel-

[The Persnickety Platypus]

You can control the ones that have to do with thought you know. Not the same as the others.

Point being it doesn't matter how it gets there it can be controlled.

HOWEVER, a better description would be that people can reason it out themselves, and control their own wants.

Apparently you are a little confused as to the functioning of an open debate. Allow me to provide a few guidelines.

First of all, the word 'debate' as applied to our given situation, means thus:

a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal

My proposal is that sexual orientation (as with every other gene derived trait) cannot be "chosen" against, and is firmly embedded into our being unless otherwise nullified by a certain contradicting environmental condition. I have provided numerous proven scientific reasons for this position, going over each in great detail.

Your counterargument: "no, your wrong".

You see, in order for any form of fruitful debate to commence, supportive reasoning must be provided in order to verify your statements.

In fact, there is even a forum rule regarding this:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

I shall await your carefully thought out scientific evidence in support of your assertions. Then (and only then) may I logically resume discussion.

Bias.

In any case an article doesn't prove squat. This is something that has happened to me and no article from woop-woop can disprove what I know.

To an onlooker a report filed by the American Psycological Association (who probably know quite a bit more than you do in regards to this subject) is much more reliable than your unsupported statements of fact.

Perhaps you could explain exactly how you know what you know, or how it has happened in your life.

The main premise of debate is convince others. Do you honestly think your current rhetoric is going to convince me of anything? I don't need you to remind me what you believe. I need to know why you believe it.