Slavery

[Malleus]

Hi there, Malleus here, long time reader, first time complainer. I am wondering, is the so called moral high ground that various religious groups seem to take warranted, having just read a section of the ten commandments, I came upon a passage thus:

(1) Then God spoke all these words: (2) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; (3) you shall have no other gods before me. (4) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, (6) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. (7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. (8) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work. (10) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. (11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. (12) Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. (13) You shall not murder. (14) You shall not commit adultery. (15) You shall not steal. (16) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (17) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Exodus 20:1-17

As you can see, it first talks of how god has removed the followers from the house of slavery, yet seems to make it clear in the bolded sections that it is fine and dandy to own slaves. Opinions???

Question: Is the Bible a piece of Hate literature proposing double standards and endorsing slavery?

[Righteous Indignation]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Do these words mean nothing? Our forefathers, the brave men of the Continental Congress, risked their very lives by signing onto these words in 1776. Yet, every man signed. I believe there are some here who would have abstained. There are some here who believe that a man can be born a slave by God’s choosing. There are some here that believe that some men have no right to life, liberty or happiness. There are some here who believe it is not our concern if a slave is beaten or raped such is God’s will. I say no; it is not God who creates inequality and injustice; it is man!

Perhaps some of the men of the Continental Congress did risk their lives in signing it, but not their own slaves, I suppose. Many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave-owners who perhaps would have been less hypocritical if they had written that 'all white Protestant men of property over the age of twenty-one are created equal', as was the stipulation in the Constitution in its original form. After all, it was Britain which offered any slaves that fought for them their freedom, and Britain had already begun the process of legal abolition of slavery while we were still refusing to talk about the issue.

You are correct; at least some of the signers of the Declaration of Independence did own slaves. Jefferson in particular owned slaves. He believed blacks to be closer to animals than men. He thought them incapable of understanding fine art, classical music and mathematics. He probably saw no contradiction between "all men are created equal" and his owning slaves, as he did not consider them human. It is also quite possible that Jefferson was raping his slave, Sally Hemings. DNA evidence has proven that at least one of Sally’s children is a Jefferson. Another interesting fact is during a trip to Paris, Sally learned she was a free woman in France and ran away. Jefferson relayed a message to her that convinced her to return to him. Jefferson, another of my many fallen heroes. Another idol that has turned out to be all too human. Still, I don’t think his ignorance should tarnish his brilliance. We are lucky he was there when he was to write one of the greatest documents of all time.

I would remind people here that Mosaic law was extremely worldly. The Old Testament wrote 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth', but this was seen as radical in an era of tribal warfare, where a slight on one side could escalate into a brutal blood-feud. Likewise, Moses was addressing people who were accustomed to taking and enslaving prisoners. Being rather reformist at this point when his popularity was not so high as it might have been, he acquiesced to the 'common sense' of his time and merely made it so that a family could not kill or maim its prisoners or debt slaves.

You have demonstrated beautifully that we have advance morally beyond the teachings of the Bible. What was once considered enlightened is now considered barbaric. The Bible has not changed for thousand of years. It’s still the same book that gave rational for slavery, women’s suffrage, the burning of non-believers, and the suppression of scientific truths. If the church were to again control again, there is no reason to believe they would not bring back these same old practices. The Bible has not change; and therefore, the church has not changed. Let the churches gain control and we are back to the days of Catholics burning Protestants and Protestants burning Catholics. Luckily for you Christian, Humanists have gained control and have forced you to stop killing each other.

[Greatest I Am]

Hi there, Malleus here, long time reader, first time complainer. I am wondering, is the so called moral high ground that various religious groups seem to take warranted, having just read a section of the ten commandments, I came upon a passage thus:

(1) Then God spoke all these words: (2) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; (3) you shall have no other gods before me. (4) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, (6) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. (7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. (8) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work. (10) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. (11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. (12) Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. (13) You shall not murder. (14) You shall not commit adultery. (15) You shall not steal. (16) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (17) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Exodus 20:1-17

As you can see, it first talks of how god has removed the followers from the house of slavery, yet seems to make it clear in the bolded sections that it is fine and dandy to own slaves. Opinions???

Question: Is the Bible a piece of Hate literature proposing double standards and endorsing slavery?

No it is not.

Slavery is a funny thing. Was it Plato who was peeved with democracy because he could not see democracy working without slaves and it was his wish to develop a system of government that did not have them. In other words, democracy has slavery.

When thinking of societies and systems we have to think demographically.

Plato's demographic pyramid showed slaves at the bottom of society.

The term slave of yesterday can be called the welfare poor of today if we build a modern demographic pyramid. Generally, slaves of the day were oftentimes highly valued by the masters.

In real terms we have slavery in all societies. All societies abuse one way or another the last line of their pyramids. Including us.

Using names like untouchables, slaves or welfare recipient is dependant on time and place only and really mean the same.

So if slavery is not allowed then we are all guilty so I better say that yes slavery is allowed and practiced everywhere.

In the final analysis it may not matter because in a sence we are all slaves to the systems we have built and if we were to change it would likely harm us more than help us. After all we have been living under this system for 10,000 years. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Regards
DL

[MagusYanam]

You have demonstrated beautifully that we have advance morally beyond the teachings of the Bible. What was once considered enlightened is now considered barbaric.

On the contrary, I don't think we have to throw out the Bible's teachings, I think we have to look at the Bible in context. I think the Noahide laws and the life and teachings of Christ can provide a basic moral framework to work in, though of course we have to work to keep them relevant and applicable.

The Bible has not changed for thousand of years. It’s still the same book that gave rational for slavery, women’s suffrage, the burning of non-believers, and the suppression of scientific truths.

The Bible hasn't been around for 'thousands of years'. The Bible we know today has only been around for about five hundred years - scriptural canon has only been established for about sixteen hundred years. That aside, St. Paul's first letter to Timothy condemns those who engage in the slave trade as 'lawless and disobedient' and 'contrary to the sound teaching' of the Gospel.

The Bible has not change; and therefore, the church has not changed. Let the churches gain control and we are back to the days of Catholics burning Protestants and Protestants burning Catholics.

I hope that the churches have learned better by now, though I will admit quite freely that there are still quite a few idiots out there, like in Northern Ireland and the Balkans who would commit atrocities over matters of doctrine.

[McCulloch]

The Bible has not changed for thousand of years. It’s still the same book that gave rational for slavery, women’s suffrage, the burning of non-believers, and the suppression of scientific truths.

The Bible hasn't been around for 'thousands of years'. The Bible we know today has only been around for about five hundred years - scriptural canon has only been established for about sixteen hundred years. That aside, St. Paul's first letter to Timothy condemns those who engage in the slave trade as 'lawless and disobedient' and 'contrary to the sound teaching' of the Gospel.

Are you claiming that Paul taught that it was contrary to Christianity to hold slaves yet some of the good Christians in the USA did not figure that out until after 1864? I would hate to admit that my co-religionists were that slow learners!

[Righteous Indignation]

The term slave of yesterday can be called the welfare poor of today if we build a modern demographic pyramid. Generally, slaves of the day were oftentimes highly valued by the masters.

In real terms we have slavery in all societies. All societies abuse one way or another the last line of their pyramids. Including us.

Using names like untouchables, slaves or welfare recipient is dependant on time and place only and really mean the same.

So if slavery is not allowed then we are all guilty so I better say that yes slavery is allowed and practiced everywhere.

In the final analysis it may not matter because in a sence we are all slaves to the systems we have built and if we were to change it would likely harm us more than help us. After all we have been living under this system for 10,000 years. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Regards
DL

Frederick Douglass, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass (1845)

"My first master's name was Captain Anthony - a title which, I presume, he acquired by sailing a craft on the Chesapeake Bay. He was not considered a rich slaveholder. He owned two or three farms, and about thirty slaves. His farms and slaves were under the care of an overseer. The overseer's name was Plummer. Mr. Plummer was a miserable drunkard, a profane swearer, and a savage monster. He always went armed with a cowskin and a heavy cudgel. I have known him to cut and slash the women's heads so horribly, that even master would be enraged at his cruelty, and would threaten to whip him if he did not mind himself. Master, however, was not a humane slaveholder. It required extraordinary barbarity on the part of an overseer to affect him. He was a cruel man, hardened by a long life of slaveholding. He would at times seem to take great pleasure in whipping a slave. I have often been awakened at the dawn of day by the most heart-rending shrieks of an own aunt of mine, whom he used to tie up to a joist, and whip upon her naked back till she was literally covered with blood. No words, no tears, no prayers, from his gory victim, seemed to move his iron heart from its bloody purpose. The louder she screamed, the harder he whipped; and where the blood ran fastest, there he whipped longest."

------------------------

How can Christians believe that slavery was not cruel, unjust and dishonest? These are people who are no different from you. Have you no empathy? No heart? No soul? Can you look at the misery in the world and feel nothing? Maybe you believe it's God's will and not your problem? They must have deserved it, right!

I would rather burn in hell than be a cold heartless Christian.

[joer]

Righteous Indignation

You have a valid argument. I just got off another site where a similar question was posed. Should saints be looked up to, who were for example, anti-Semitic and participated in the inquisitions and advocated an end to Judaism even though they (the saint) knew well and suffered for the gospel of Jesus?

We certainly should consider WHY a religious person might have supported slavery in the past. I think the historical perspective SHOULD be examined. While what was looked upon as holy and good in one century in time may be recognized as being wrong in another century. Like slavery. The Church and those of us within it should recognize things that the believers did or positions (like slavery and slave owners) that they held that in our time we find are in error. Certainly in the dark ages and the time of great religious and unholy wars and the reactive deadly Inquisition in response to prior conquests and domination’s and the resultant slavery from these actions, should be recognized for what they represented in the existing conditions of their times. Just as conditions of slavery in times of the governmental imposition of one nation over another and the resultant slavery took place in earlier times as well as the context of slavery in biblical times.

Slavery should be considered in it’s historical context as well as today's context, and those things of positive survival value, that is those aspects of religion or human actions that are good and stand-up to the test of time should be promoted and remembered. Those things of the times of slavery like slavery itself that don't merit being promulgated should be recognized as lacking merit of recognition and cast aside as such and deemed as not being worthy of recognition as something of value in the time when it existed as well as today. Sometimes negative aspects of a slave’s life may have value in being contrasted to the change that took place in a slave’s life in terms of how slavery’s error made the slaves lives and resiliency in actions in terms of escaping or enduring slavery even more profound. IMHO.

I'm a christian. I never codonned slavery. I never will. Even if in the past it was accepted in the world by religious and non-religious alike. When we find those historical examples we should condem the slavery precticed in those examples as Moral errors of the human condition.

Righteous Indignation, I saw a movie on PBS recently that showed the British person who spearheaded the abolishment of slavery in Briton in the early 1800's. I was quite a battle that last about 20 years before it finally through political manipulation and the conditions of the time changed to be more favorable for the abolition of slavery. There was a gentleman who wrote the song Amazing Grace who spent his life scrubbing stone floors in an abbey after being a captain of slaving ships. So repulsed was he by what he had done. As he scrubbed those floors he was haunted and tormented in his mind by the horrors he had perpetrated and witnessed. He had a pivotal influence on the politician who spent his life fighting slavery. I was quite a moving story.

Seeing the video "The Amistad". A true story of a slave ship captured in US waters and the ensuing trial for the slaves freedom or proper ownership that went all the way to the Supreme Court. They were freed and it's shone in the movie that this was another incident that precipitated our own civil war over the same issue. If you've seen the video you know what I mean.

Well God's Blessings to all those who are willing to recieve it. and Cheers and well being to all the rest !

[Righteous Indignation]

Fifty times a minute the following words are being printed and distributed to people around the world:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." Colossians 3:22 (NIV)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." Ephesians 6:5(NIV)

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."1 Peter 2:18 (NIV)

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them," Titus 2:9 (NIV)

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” (I Timothy 2:11-12 NKJV)

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV).

“And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9 KJV)

“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9 KJV)

“Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2 (KJV)

Joer you seem like a nice guy but as a Christian you are giving legitimacy to the words above. Other Christians will go so far as to say these are the inerrant words of God himself. These people would happily burn promiscuous little girls as instructed. I think you’re better than that. Still, unless you are willing to disclaim these and other barbaric verses in the Bible I must doubt your humanity also.

[joer]

Righteous Indignation,

Thank your for your recognition. You speak the truth.

Joer you seem like a nice guy but as a Christian you are giving legitimacy to the words above. Other Christians will go so far as to say these are the inerrant words of God himself. These people would happily burn promiscuous little girls as instructed. I think you’re better than that. Still, unless you are willing to disclaim these and other barbaric verses in the Bible I must doubt your humanity also.

You are a kind person and you act with the same righteous indignation to these atrocities as Christ did when he faced them. As you have correctly said there are people who call them selves Christians that would try to support these WRONG ideas and actions to defend something they dogmatically and ideologically adhere to. That every word in the Bible is the word of God and thus infallible. Although they claim to be Christians they fail to follow the most precious teachings of the person whose name they bear.

Christ like you defended those who were persecuted in there time from the smug righteousness of the Pharisees and Saduceses just as you defend them in our time from the smug Christians who fail to follow Christ's teachings of loving one another. I am a Christian, Righteous Indignation, and I'm am not giving those words you quote any support by being a Christian. Because by being a true Christian one would strive to uplift and help his or her follow human being just as Christ did. Just like you do.

None of those quotes you used are Christ's words or teachings. As a matter of fact He came to clarify what God's message to humankind was and IS. To correct our errors in understanding God's message to humankind. He said "I give you a new commandment To love one another as God loves you". he came to reveal a Just God of Love and forgiveness to replace the imagine of a God to be feared, A vengeful God, a God of Wrath, A God of killing and war. A God that smites a person down. But Jesus came to reveal to us a God that loves, that cares about us. That forgives us before we forgive ourselves for the errors of our ways. A God that desires us to do right and progress in our spirituality and bettering ourselves.

Righteous Indignation, I've known many people like you who do God's work without even recognizing it at such. While others who CLAIM to do God's work do not recognize the error of their unrighteous and unGodlike deeds.

God only wants us to do God's Will. And this is doing like you Righteous Indignation, defending the poor, the oppressed, the imprisoned, the weak the meek, the widows and orphans, those without food, clothing and shelter, making room for Strangers in our midst.

I believe most Christians see this Righteous Indignation, but many are still ruled by the hearts and ways of old. An eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth. You get a thief you cut off his hand. While Jesus said "if he steels your coat you give him your tunic too". It really too much for most people to accept weather they are Christian or not. It took 20 years of pondering and contemplating that lesson before I could finally admit to myself in my heart that I could do that...."give him my coat too." before that what I would've gave him would have landed me in jail.

So Righteous, my friend we are all works in progress. I'm thankful for the love you have for your fellow human being. Some of the things we do today that are acceptable to most will almost certainly disgust citizens of our world in future times ...like 2000 years from now. Hopefully by them the errors we make in today's world will be corrected and the human race will be well advanced in peace and harmony.

In the mean time we have to do the work required of us to get there. You as who you are and I as a Christian join arms and stand together in defense of those who would be oppressed and mistreated by others of our species regardless of where they say it says it's OK. It's not OK plain and simple. And that's what Christ would teach and That is what I would try to emulate in my living and breathing actions.

God Bless the Christians who DO RECOGNIZE and promote Jesus' teachings of Love and understanding care for ALL. Regardless of station or position.

And Kudos to those of us Like You Rightous who stand up for those oppressed for rightousness sake and the value of moral correctness.

Christ wanted us to be known as his followers (Christians) by our caoacity to Love. I pray in the future you meet Christians like that!

Cheers my brothers and sisters in LIFE and Love.

[Greatest I Am]

I have said that God "told" me to think demographically. I invite you all to do the same with this issue.
If you do you will come to the conclusion that we are all slaves in the sence that if we stop doing what we are doing then the whole system breaks down.
We are all interdependent within a demographic picture and the title we give ourselves be it king or slave does not mater. A king is still a slave to the system. His standard of living for that position is just higher than those below.
Change the position of one or all and we still end up with the same picture.
This is what pissed off Plate and is why democracy is the best but not perfect system. It allows "free" movement between the levels.

Can anybody understand what I am saying here?

Regards
DL

[joer]

Good morning Greatest,

I understand you very well I believe. You're presenting another perspective of "slavery" with a scope that is expanded beyond the meaning, I believe Righteous intended.

Where as you are not dealing with the issues Righteous is raising directly, if I understand you correctly in the perspective you've presented here, you're implying that if we deal with the expanded view of the problem of "slavery" that is all of us being slaves to a system in which we are oppressed regardless of the position we are in, in solving the problem of slavery as expressed in you're perspective we will be solving the issues raised by Righteous at the same. As it is contained within the expanded scenario you have presented to us.

Is that not correct Greatest?

Correct or not in the teachings of Jesus we find a solution. He preached a gospel in which all humans are free, slave as well as slave owner. I believe He could see your perspective Greatest as well as others that we do not yet grasp. So He could see that both Slave and Slave owner needed Salvation from the system you describe. So He told them both and us all that "My kingdom, the kingdom of God, is within you." It is not of this world. So he taught of another system, a system of God in which slave and slave owner and all of us would be freed. So we see that the change that we implement in ourselves by finding and discovering this kingdom that Jesus spoke of and then living in accordance to its WAY we are saved by an internal adjustment of perspective and realization of the REAL US from God's perspective and freed from the outward appearance of oppression to live a joyful and fulfilling Spirit led life. Where "slavery" is recognized and understood and the value of replacing the manifestation of "the concepts of slavery" in the world with "concepts of the brotherhood and sisterhood of human kind with the sole God ordained purpose of uplifting and providing service to one another in the advancement of humankind, becomes a reality.
I thank God Greatest, for your open and perceiving mind and heart. I thank righteous for his moral values and his willingness to commit to action in support of those values.

I pray that those who would argue with these precepts taught by Christ and many great religious and moral leaders for the sake of argument or for any purpose at all, consider the value of adopting this life saving and world improving perspective.

To the God believers I pray that they listen to this Gospel. To the non-God believers I ask that they listen to and see the value of these ideas and concepts of self improvement by the adoption of a problem solving and life healing perspective of the human condition as it pertains to the individual and through that individual to the rest of the world. For Jesus taught that this message is for believers and non-believers alike, regardless of faith, creed, race, gender, economic position, nationality, age or any other of the discriminations that we might try to present to impede the absorption into humanity of the value of these ideas.

To my fellow believers I say, Amen! To my fellow non-believers I say Cheers my brothers and sisters!

Live Long and Free and Prosper!