Debating Christianity and Religion

blondiefreak890 · Post by **blondiefreak890** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:36 am

Ive heard many valued opinions of my friends and ppl ive met.They all have very different opinions.Some say god is really others say he's something ppl made up just to turn to for guidence when thier confused.Now i want to kno the truth is there really god?If so what is the proof?

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:19 am

The real problem with Pascal's wager is this: Pascal was aiming his wager at the undecideds, those who weren't sure whether God existed or not. He was saying, "Go ahead and bet on God, you have nothing to lose." So what do they do? They "decide" to believe in God. But true belief is not a decision, it is not a real choice. If you have doubts about God's existence, you can't just "decide" them away. Those doubts will still be there, in the back of your mind. Sure, you might be able to bury them if you buy into the apologetics, the theodicies, the rationalizations that have been given for all the problems with Christianity or god-belief...but chances are, if you doubted enough in the first place to actually contemplate Pascal's wager, you won't ever become a true God-believer. You'll just be going through the motions..."just in case."

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:32 am

blondiefreak890 wrote:Ive heard many valued opinions of my friends and ppl ive met.They all have very different opinions.Some say god is really others say he's something ppl made up just to turn to for guidence when thier confused.Now i want to kno the truth is there really god?If so what is the proof?

Welcome, blondiefreak! Glad to see someone your age exploring this most basic issue.

There is no objective proof for God, proof that everyone can look at and agree on. Individuals will tell you that any proof for God is subjective, that is, it can be found internally through Faith.

I don't want to come off as trying to convert you to atheism, since at your age you have a lot of thinking to do about this issue, but since you are already expressing doubt, I think its a good idea for you to explore those doubts as much as possible. It is good to doubt. There's nothing wrong with it. Some people claim to gain a greater understanding and stronger relationship with their god through doubt and questioning. If that's where it leads you, then that's fine.

But you should know that there are good reasons to doubt the existence of God. You will find most, if not all, of those reasons just by exploring this board. And if your reading takes you in the other direction, towards atheism, don't try to suppress your own thinking. Don't make the mistake of saying to yourself, "Oh, no, I think I'm an atheist! But atheists are considered bad people! I mustn't think this way!" You can't "undo" your own thoughts - you can't "unthink." And you don't want to. It's perfectly OK to be an atheist, agnostic, or whatever you might call yourself.

So take a look around, and if you have any questions (and something tells me you will), feel free to start a topic in the Debate section.

inobaba · Post by **inobaba** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:51 am

Ive heard many valued opinions of my friends and ppl ive met.They all have very different opinions.Some say god is really others say he's something ppl made up just to turn to for guidence when thier confused.Now i want to kno the truth is there really god?If so what is the proof?

inobaba wrote:The existence of God is really questionable. If he really existed why did he give all human beings desire? It's tempting us to sin. God in my view is simply the people's image of a "perfect human being", because all crimes either are accidental or caused by desire. God does not make mistakes and has no desire it seems. The Bible telling you to serve God is simply telling you to try to become the "perfect human being", to make the society a better place for everyone.

This is what I've posted on another topic, I don't see how there can be any proof for the existence of God.

meeble · Post by **meeble** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:28 am

It is good to doubt. There's nothing wrong with it. Some people claim to gain a greater understanding and stronger relationship with their god through doubt and questioning. If that's where it leads you, then that's fine.

Doesn't that counter what you said earlier about the belief in God not being a decision and that doubt, if there is any, is always there, therefore preventing a person from being a true believer?

If this is the case then which would you perceive as being more important? Being a 'true' believer or using doubt and questioning in order to gain a greater understanding and stronger relationship with God?

I tend to think the latter is more likely and it seems preferable to me. I'm not convinced that thinking your way or deciding to believe in God necessarily makes you any less a believer.

Nirvana-Eld · Post by **Nirvana-Eld** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:48 am

Doesn't that counter what you said earlier about the belief in God not being a decision and that doubt, if there is any, is always there, therefore preventing a person from being a true believer?

You took what he said out of context. Plain and simple. He said that while talking about Pascal's Wager. And he was showing how Pascal's Wager was designed for the undecided people who doubt, and that even if you make the "decision", you will probably still doubt. He giving the example that sometimes doubt leads to conviction out of the context of Pascal's Wager.

So that with Pascal's Wager you make a decision. Doubt cannot be decided away. But if you have doubts (we're not talking about pascal's wager anymore) it can lead to a stronger faith in whatever faith you're apart of. Theres no real contradiction.

The Happy Humanist · Post by **The Happy Humanist** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:49 am

It is good to doubt. There's nothing wrong with it. Some people claim to gain a greater understanding and stronger relationship with their god through doubt and questioning. If that's where it leads you, then that's fine.

Doesn't that counter what you said earlier about the belief in God not being a decision and that doubt, if there is any, is always there, therefore preventing a person from being a true believer?

I don't see how it is a contradiction. I'm no expert on faith, having none myself, but I've heard faith in God described as a "constant struggle," in which one allows God to win over doubt. Doing so does not make one any less of a true believer. This, at least, is my understanding. (I'm hoping someone here can point me to the right passage in Scripture, or the Biblical character that most exemplifies this - Abraham?)

If this is the case then which would you perceive as being more important? Being a 'true' believer or using doubt and questioning in order to gain a greater understanding and stronger relationship with God?

Again, a false dichotomy, from my understanding. If you're defining a True Believer as someone with zero doubt about God's existence, I would venture to say there is no such thing.

I tend to think the latter is more likely and it seems preferable to me. I'm not convinced that thinking your way or deciding to believe in God necessarily makes you any less a believer

Ah, I see what you're getting at. The emphasis in my statement was on the reason for deciding. I'm assuming the Christian God wants "committed" believers. Becoming a believer "just in case" doesn't sound much more committed than flipping a coin. However, if you decide to believe in God because he satisfies some positive emotional need, your more likely to not just believe, but become dedicated to him, love him, etc. I don't think simply taking up Pascal gives one the level of dedication God is looking for, and hence, might even backfire. That was the essence of my message.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:03 am

Deborah wrote:

I believe when the time comes we will all know the answer to that question.
Are you making the assumption that God is physical or manlike?

There is no such description of God in his word.

however it clearly states

John 4 24 God is a Spirit:
Numbers 23 19 God is not a man

I like the following passage just for stirring the waters.

The Lord is a man of war,” Exodus 15:3

It seems God is our best and worse projections of our own qualities.
Rather God exists or not we still tend to respond to those projections.

The Happy Humanist wrote:

I don't see how it is a contradiction. I'm no expert on faith, having none myself, but I've heard faith in God described as a "constant struggle," in which one allows God to win over doubt. Doing so does not make one any less of a true believer. This, at least, is my understanding. (I'm hoping someone here can point me to the right passage in Scripture, or the Biblical character that most exemplifies this - Abraham?)

Good to see you again Happy Humanist.
The story says that Abraham had lunch with God and when for a walk.
God even asked the angels if he should let his friend in on his plans.
Abraham tries to Jew God down and even talks him into sparing Sodom for the sake of 10 righteous men. Not bad when you think he started out with 50. My point being, how much faith did he really have?
He didn't doubt he was alive and hungry. He was willing to sacrifice his son or maybe did, depending on whom you believe. Of course many sacrificed their children then. What makes God seem so special is that he didn't follow thru but was stopped. Elohim tells him to kill his son and an angel of YHWH stops him.

slagitygitt · Post by **slagitygitt** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:24 am

It's okay, I know alot of people don't understand the scriptures. No offense, but let me explain this Bible story to you all simply. To summarize, Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son as a test of his "faith" to see if he would obey whatever the Lord asked of him.

note: Jehovah is the God of the Old Testiment, Elohim is the God of the New Testament. Jesus Christ was the name given to Jehovah during His stay here on earth. When I say "God" I am not saying there is more than one God, I'm saying that the people refered to Jehovah in the old Testament as "God" and in the new Testament, considering Jehovah was on earth as Jesus Christ, they refered to Elohim as "God". They are both 'God', the latter being the greater. Jesus even admits to God The Father being greater.

Continuing...The stroy of Abraham and sacrificing his son is to show us how strong his faith was. God certainly knew whether or not he was going to obey Him, but Abraham needed to show it and see for himself to experience that faith because faith is NOT just believing....it's DOING. That's the only way he could have prepared himself and strengthened his faith enough to prepare him for whatever was to befall him later. When Abraham was about to sacrifice his son the Angel came because God was satisfied that Abraham had shown enough evidence of his faith in Him. Not to mention the fact that Abraham's son played a fairly important roll later on.

theleos6 · Post by **theleos6** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:59 am

Deborah wrote:
There is no such description of God in his word.

God says he has a face, back parts and hands:
Exodus 33:23
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

And his hands have horns in them:
Habakkuk 3:3-4
God ... had horns coming out of his hand.

slagitygitt · Post by **slagitygitt** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:28 am

Rofl, some Biblical versus aren't to be taken too literal. If we did that, Isaiah would be the funniest book on the Bible.

God doesn't have horns coming from his hands literally. Although I agree that he has hands and a face, and a back most likely. That would be very humerous to have a God with only one right hand, a face, no head no feet...

The only thing that we NEED to know about how God looks is that "man was created in the image of God". That's it. An image of water looks like...water. An image of a house looks like...a house. An image of man looks like...God. They even though the water might be green in one and blue in the other, and the house in one might be bigger than the house in the other and have shutters on each window, it's still water, and it's still a house. God looks like man...plain and simple. The Bible doesn't speak more literal than that as to how God looks. That pretty much covers everything.

God

God

Re: God