Homosexuality

Daystar · Post by **Daystar** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:03 am

Italy's nominee to become the European Union's Justice and Home Affairs commissioner failed on Monday to win the backing of the European Parliament's Justice Committee, days after testifying that he considers homosexuality a sin.

The panel narrowly failed to endorse Rocco Buttiglione, who is currently Italy's European Affairs minister, said Jean-Louis Bourlanges, chairman of the Justice Committee.

Buttiglione said that he would fight for the rights of homosexuals, but would not back away from his statement that the lifestyle is sinful.

Isn't this the way it should be? Fight for the rights of homosexuals, but individuals, but define their lifestyle as sinful (Lev. 18:22).

Esoteric_Illuminati · Post by **Esoteric_Illuminati** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:26 pm

ENIGMA wrote: Forgive me, but I'm a bit rusty on my Old Testament.... Which one of the 10 commandments forbids homosexuality again?

It's a violation of the 1st Commandment. An unrepentent homosexual places his body and his interests above and before God. Therefore he treats himself as an idol by means of self worship.

Paul makes that connection in his epistles...

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

This is an interesting site with a Pauline argument against homosexuality worth a read:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ336.HTM

ProfMoriarty · Post by **ProfMoriarty** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:07 pm

An unrepentent homosexual places his body and his interests above and before God.

This equally would apply to an unrepentent heterosexual, so how do you justify your claim that the homosexual alone is an idolator, and in that case why should the homosexual be the subject of prejudice?

Esoteric_Illuminati · Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:07 am

ProfMoriarty wrote:
An unrepentent homosexual places his body and his interests above and before God.
This equally would apply to an unrepentent heterosexual, so how do you justify your claim that the homosexual alone is an idolator, and in that case why should the homosexual be the subject of prejudice?

Don't put words into my posts. I never said that the homosexual "alone" is an idolator and I don't believe homosexuals ought to be singled out as a "subject of prejudice." I think that was made quite clear in the Scripture I posted. Indeed it applies to all unrepentent persons that live a life of sexual immorality, as the Scripture clearly indicates, but I thought this is a thread on homosexuality? The question I responded to asked specifically about homosexuality in relation to the 10 commandments and my answer was tailored specifically to that question.

ProfMoriarty · Post by **ProfMoriarty** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:38 am

I never said that the homosexual "alone" is an idolator and I don't believe homosexuals ought to be singled out as a "subject of prejudice."

Fair enough, I accept that. So in fact you agree with me that the verse you quote, as it applies to all, cannot be used to show that homosexuality is a sin, as it presupposes we know what a sin of "sexual immorality" is already? You are sayng that it's idolatry because it's sexual immorality, and it's a sin because it's idolatry, but where do we find where it's sexual immorality?

I don't happen to think it is immorality, as it is genetically based, and may even have a positive evolutionary advantage according to dome recent research. That makes it a natural human trait, and evolution doesn't seem to worry about morals.

Daystar · Post by **Daystar** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:10 pm

ProfMoriarty wrote:
An unrepentent homosexual places his body and his interests above and before God.
This equally would apply to an unrepentent heterosexual, so how do you justify your claim that the homosexual alone is an idolator, and in that case why should the homosexual be the subject of prejudice?

[Day] "You shall not lie with a man as a man lies with a woman." (Lev. 18:22) Moses didn't' make that up. God doesn't hate homosexuals, but calls them to repentance, just like everyone else. Heterosexuals sin sexually outside of marriage (Heb. 13:4)

"God commands all people everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30)

Jesus said, "Repent and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15)

Paul said, "It is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes." (Rom. 1:16)

Peter said, "Repent, then, and turn to God that your sins may be wiped out...." (Acts 3:19) and, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come unto repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9)

Repent, while you still have the breath of life, and turn to Jesus. He loves you and died for your sins.

Esoteric_Illuminati · Post by **Esoteric_Illuminati** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:52 pm

ProfMoriarty wrote:
I never said that the homosexual "alone" is an idolator and I don't believe homosexuals ought to be singled out as a "subject of prejudice."
Fair enough, I accept that. So in fact you agree with me that the verse you quote, as it applies to all, cannot be used to show that homosexuality is a sin, as it presupposes we know what a sin of "sexual immorality" is already? You are sayng that it's idolatry because it's sexual immorality, and it's a sin because it's idolatry, but where do we find where it's sexual immorality?

I don't happen to think it is immorality, as it is genetically based, and may even have a positive evolutionary advantage according to dome recent research. That makes it a natural human trait, and evolution doesn't seem to worry about morals.

Did you bother reading the link I gave that provides a Pauline argument against homosexuality? All Scripture is profitable, so don't try to isolate verses on me. God's Word clearly teaches homosexuality as a sin apart from my limited explanation focusing on the Ten Commandments. All sins can be logically reduced to violations of the 2 greatest commandments - sins against God and sins against thy neighbor. It's idolatry because it is self-worship (sin against God). Idolatry is condemned in the first commandment. We must understand it in this context along with the additional understanding that God established a certain way of life (morality), and the natural, moral relationship between human beings that God set up was one man and one woman.

Homosexual tendancies are one thing and a person may struggle with those...but it is a CHOICE to have homosexual sex. Homosexuality is not much different than alcoholism as far as I'm concerned. Both are bio-social disorders that can be fought with faith if the person is repentant.

As for it being genetically based, that doesn't determine morality, since we are rational beings capable of acting beyond our instincts. Murder and rape can also be seen as evolutionarily advantageous. Christianity teaches we are by nature sinful and it is no surprise when certain things Christianity condemns as immoral are found to be genetic predispositions. Homosexuality is simply one manifestation of a person's sinful nature.

Daystar · Post by **Daystar** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:10 am

ProfMoriarty wrote:
Doesn't the law of nature speak to you?
Well no, the law of nature doesn't speak to me. (I wasn't aware there was one). Nature does whatever is expedient at the time - if you even try to base morality on nature you will be in trouble.

[Day] Natural law should speak to you. Are you not listening? It is only natural for men and women to desire each other and reproduce. It is built into us. Homosexuality perverts that natural act.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged NATURAL relations for UNNATURAL ONES. In the same way men also abandoned NATURAL relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." (Rom. 1:26,27)

Homosexual behaviour is very common in nature, for a variety of reasons, but mainly as a means for a low-ranking member of a group to steal the chance to mate with a high ranking female while no one is looking. So you can read that as saying that homosexuality is perfectly normal; but you can't take from this that it is morally correct or incorrect.

[Day] If you believe this, your morals are in desperate need of correction. God destroyed ancient cites because of gross immorality which included homosexuality.

Homosexuality applies equally to male and to female - homo in this context means "same", it is nothing to do with 'human' or any indicator of gender.

[Day] It incorporates both, yes.

But what I want to know is why is it sinful? And what I want to know is why is it sinful? Two different questions. (And what do you mean by sinful anyway? ) . What business is it of anyone to make judgements about a person based upon their sexuality?

[Day] Sin is the breach of God's commandments. It's sinful because he said so. There are divine absolutes about what is right and what is wrong. There was a time when people were revulsed about homosexuality. But because it has "come out of the closet," it is falsely perceived that it's only another lifestyle. That is a lie from the pit of hell.

Just trying to get some answers here that aren't simply references to bible verses.

[Day] Again, natural law should speak to your heart about a man placing his penis in another man's rectum. If you can't see that, I'll pray for you

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:08 am

Daystar wrote:Again, natural law should speak to your heart about a man placing his penis in another man's rectum. If you can't see that, I'll pray for you

I'm not sure what 'natural law' has to do with human sexuality.

As for "praying for me" ...why bother telling me...if it works, it should work without the object of the prayer knowing. Telling the object about it wil make no difference.

What motivates you to tell people "I'll pray for you", especially when they may not believe in the same god/doctrine as you.?

ST88 · Post by **ST88** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:04 pm

Esoteric_Illuminati wrote:This is an interesting site with a Pauline argument against homosexuality worth a read:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ336.HTM

Doesn't this passage have to do with God infusing these particular idolators with the socially unacceptable sexual practices of the times in order to show just how much He despises idolatry? I.e., Idolatry leads to homosexuality, and, boy, that's a high price to pay for worshipping a snake.

To me, "God gave them over... to impurity" [NAS] ("God gave them up... to uncleanliness [KJV]") says that God had something to do with the punishment of these idolators. I suppose I can take from this that God always allows the darkness to pass over people who commit sin thusly, so that they will become homosexuals and that they are all "worthy of death." Is this, then, how we will be able to spot the mortal sinners around us?

I mean, Idolatry should be its own sin, but this worldly punishment of being consigned to homosexuality appears only to be by example, not as a chastisement against homosexuality per se.

Daystar · Post by **Daystar** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:11 pm

bernee51 wrote:
Daystar wrote:Again, natural law should speak to your heart about a man placing his penis in another man's rectum. If you can't see that, I'll pray for you
I'm not sure what 'natural law' has to do with human sexuality.

[Day] Do you think it is a "natural" for a man to insert his organ into the rectum of another man?

As for "praying for me" ...why bother telling me...if it works, it should work without the object of the prayer knowing. Telling the object about it wil make no difference.

[Day] Well don't be surprised if some good things happen

What motivates you to tell people "I'll pray for you", especially when they may not believe in the same god/doctrine as you.?

[Day] I believe the Bible is the Word of God and is profitable for doctrine, training in righteousness and correction. So when it says that God hears and responds to the prayers of his children, I have to believe it.