Is there ever a justified case for adultery?

[ssnapier]

This is a question that I am sure will get some people fired up so please remain calm. I just want to know if you can see any scenario in which adultery would be justified.

[Darren]

I know by now you agree we can't force honesty, it has to be volunteered. So, in a broad sense, that would be a "no" to your question.

Thank you for answering.
She would be justified, or 'just', to get an abortion without telling you. That is as it must be. You would be justified in hiding your masturbation habits. That is completely your business. I say you are justified in hiding the details from your spouse.
Cheating can be everything from a meaningful stare, to participation in an orgy. If someone decides to cheat, and then decides to lie, both decisions are justified. They are autonomous and therefore can manage their personal lives in any way they wish - even if others, hell, even if their spouse thinks otherwise.

[Beto]

I know by now you agree we can't force honesty, it has to be volunteered. So, in a broad sense, that would be a "no" to your question.

Thank you for answering.
She would be justified, or 'just', to get an abortion without telling you. That is as it must be. You would be justified in hiding your masturbation habits. That is completely your business. I say you are justified in hiding the details from your spouse.
Cheating can be everything from a meaningful stare, to participation in an orgy. If someone decides to cheat, and then decides to lie, both decisions are justified. They are autonomous and therefore can manage their personal lives in any way they wish - even if others, hell, even if their spouse thinks otherwise.

Ultimately, what matters is if you feel your actions go against your own principles. If you think lying (and "having" to hide the fact one had an abortion should feel pretty much the same way to most women) is something you find reprehensible, there should be no reason to feel you can't tell your partner, thereby violating your own sense of morality. And like I said, I think it's up to ourselves to ensure our partner doesn't feel the need to.

[Darren]

That is true, Beto, but what I am opposing is the requirement that someone share their life with you. What that means is that your spouse does not owe you an explanation. Your spouse does not need any more justification than 'I wanted to'.
I hope that my spouse never felt the need to lie or hide something from me. If you think about it, it would be horrible for her. She must have some very good reasons for not telling me, and since I love her, I would support her decision (even when I think it's wrong).
I had a woman lie to me once, about something important. I had advice from several friends to dump her, and get away fast. I loved her instead, just like I wanted to.
The thing she had lied about was the fact that she was pregnant. She didn't tell me until we were in the hospital, about to deliver. Nevermind how it is that I didn't know (our roommate also didn't know - and he had 5 kids), nevermind why she felt she needed to lie to me. What it is important to remember is that she felt awful because she felt like she was betraying me by not telling me. Why would I want to dump that on someone I love?
Think about that. Think about what she must have been going through, and on top of all that, she felt rotten because of my expectation of honesty.
I won't require honesty again. I go out of my way now to tell my honey that her life is her business. If I find that we aren't working out, we can part, but I can't bully someone into telling me things they feel awkward about. It takes away from a relationship, in my view.

[ShadowRishi]

This is a question that I am sure will get some people fired up so please remain calm. I just want to know if you can see any scenario in which adultery would be justified.

There are only two cases when I think that one partner should not in any way hold it against their partner if they have sex outside of their union:

A. Rape.
B. They decide together to have a threesome. (Or foursome, yeesh!)

[ShadowRishi]

That is true, Beto, but what I am opposing is the requirement that someone share their life with you. What that means is that your spouse does not owe you an explanation. Your spouse does not need any more justification than 'I wanted to'.
I hope that my spouse never felt the need to lie or hide something from me. If you think about it, it would be horrible for her. She must have some very good reasons for not telling me, and since I love her, I would support her decision (even when I think it's wrong).
I had a woman lie to me once, about something important. I had advice from several friends to dump her, and get away fast. I loved her instead, just like I wanted to.
The thing she had lied about was the fact that she was pregnant. She didn't tell me until we were in the hospital, about to deliver. Nevermind how it is that I didn't know (our roommate also didn't know - and he had 5 kids), nevermind why she felt she needed to lie to me. What it is important to remember is that she felt awful because she felt like she was betraying me by not telling me. Why would I want to dump that on someone I love?
Think about that. Think about what she must have been going through, and on top of all that, she felt rotten because of my expectation of honesty.
I won't require honesty again. I go out of my way now to tell my honey that her life is her business. If I find that we aren't working out, we can part, but I can't bully someone into telling me things they feel awkward about. It takes away from a relationship, in my view.

Why would you dump someone like that?


I think most people, myself included, would feel rather angry that someone would refuse to disclose this information to me --especially when it is largely something I should know. I would not, I do not think, feel like a martyr or a hero for accepting her back. A relationship is founded upon friendship; a friendship is founded upon trust. Trust is earned, and without, I cannot fathom --for myself, at any rate-- why I would allow myself to be with someone whom did not trust me. Forgive me, I know nothing of your relationship, but that seems more like a recipe for a casual fling than a serious relationship.

[Darren]

Why would you dump someone like that?


I think most people, myself included, would feel rather angry that someone would refuse to disclose this information to me -

Sounds like you require honesty regarding sexual matters between you and your partner. I sure wouldn't want to be in that position.

A relationship is founded upon friendship; a friendship is founded upon trust. Trust is earned, and without, I cannot fathom --for myself, at any rate-- why I would allow myself to be with someone whom did not trust me.

Oh, she trusted me. She was also a little crazy (as was I). She and I are as close as 'exes' can be, and our child sees us respect each other, and treat each other well. Maybe you would have held a grudge instead? I did end up leaving her, but maintained the friendship because for me friendship is largely about respect. I respect that she has a life of her own, and I don't get to tell her how to live it. Sounds like if someone wont share all the details of their life with you, you think you aren't trusted.

Trust me, if you are in a relationship, you don't know (or tell) everything. Do you tell if you masturbate? Every time? Does your partner? I am sure everyone keeps secrets. Is everyone then just in a casual fling instead of a relationship?

[ShadowRishi]

Sounds like you require honesty regarding sexual matters between you and your partner. I sure wouldn't want to be in that position.

I would. I am very firm in my personal wishes for truth. I've picked truth over more favorable, less true answers in every other case; why wouldn't I do the same for relationships, which matter so much more than most things?

I value truth, even if that truth is painful. If I personally ran away from the stuff that has happened in my life, I personally could only view myself as a coward. That might seem rather strong of a dichotomy, but that's how I experience the world.

Oh, she trusted me. She was also a little crazy (as was I). She and I are as close as 'exes' can be, and our child sees us respect each other, and treat each other well. Maybe you would have held a grudge instead? I did end up leaving her, but maintained the friendship because for me friendship is largely about respect. I respect that she has a life of her own, and I don't get to tell her how to live it. Sounds like if someone wont share all the details of their life with you, you think you aren't trusted.

Yes, I would have personally held a grudge; I would see that as a betrayal.

Trust me, if you are in a relationship, you don't know (or tell) everything. Do you tell if you masturbate? Every time? Does your partner? I am sure everyone keeps secrets. Is everyone then just in a casual fling instead of a relationship?

Oh, I don't pretend like you tell everything to your partner; although, I honestly don't give a damn if my partner has an imaginary play-date with Brad Pitt. Those type of things are meaningless; those are the casual flings in life. I do not pretend like any human is going to be the one sexual desire of your life; what I do care about is if I am the one person in their life, however, that they do not intend to abandon, take advantage of, care for, deceitful, and be dishonest towards.

However, I cannot rationally equate not telling my partner if I masturbated today to if she didn't tell me about our pregnancy for 9 months.

[Darren]

Sounds like you require honesty regarding sexual matters between you and your partner. I sure wouldn't want to be in that position.

I would. I am very firm in my personal wishes for truth.

I say that what you have is not trust, you have a contractual requirement with enforcement options and dissolution terms. Sounds quite conditional to me. I have trust with my Sweetheart. I don't need to put conditions on it.

Yes, I would have personally held a grudge; I would see that as a betrayal.

...and after that, would you still require honesty of your partner? Do you see how it doesn't make sense. It is her right to use her body the way she wants, and her right to keep it private. You may disagree. You might not even trust her. What you can't reasonably do is require someone to be honest with you about matters that are essentially private.

Oh, I don't pretend like you tell everything to your partner; although, I honestly don't give a damn if my partner has an imaginary play-date with Brad Pitt. Those type of things are meaningless; those are the casual flings in life. I do not pretend like any human is going to be the one sexual desire of your life; what I do care about is if I am the one person in their life, however, that they do not intend to abandon, take advantage of, care for, deceitful, and be dishonest towards.

However, I cannot rationally equate not telling my partner if I masturbated today to if she didn't tell me about our pregnancy for 9 months.

You still haven't given any reason why someone should be required to tell you something. Is your partner required to tell you if she has an abortion? How do you police this? Why would anyone want to police their relationship?

[ShadowRishi]

Sounds like you require honesty regarding sexual matters between you and your partner. I sure wouldn't want to be in that position.

I would. I am very firm in my personal wishes for truth.

I say that what you have is not trust, you have a contractual requirement with enforcement options and dissolution terms. Sounds quite conditional to me. I have trust with my Sweetheart. I don't need to put conditions on it.

Really? I tend to think that there are always requirements for everything. For example, would you love your partner is she treated you like dirt, if she walked all over you, if she abused your child, or if you had never met her?


Everything has conditions, everything has requirements. In the West, we have romanticized love until it has become something that's not even close to reality, in my opinion. I cannot love someone who does not love me back --I mean, I have that ability, but it is suicide. I choose not to love someone who does not like me, and we all have to on occasion.

...and after that, would you still require honesty of your partner? Do you see how it doesn't make sense. It is her right to use her body the way she wants, and her right to keep it private. You may disagree. You might not even trust her. What you can't reasonably do is require someone to be honest with you about matters that are essentially private.

Oh, I have no control over anyone; she is perfectly capable of doing whatever she wishes. However, I have the expectation that she will not do me wrong, and when she does, I believe I have every right to begrudge her for it.

Would I still require honesty after what? After she betrays me? If she wishes to resolve things with me, yes; if she does not, then she is free to choose her own future --as am I.

I do not control people; they are free to feel anyway they choose. But by the same measure, so am I.

You still haven't given any reason why someone should be required to tell you something. Is your partner required to tell you if she has an abortion? How do you police this? Why would anyone want to police their relationship?

Is there any reason for why we search out partners? Is there any reason why we let our guards down to let another person in? Is there any reason why we feel lonely, or sad, or happy, or angry, or scared, or discontent, or content?

I do not believe there is any real reason or purpose behind them, past what we derive out of it. We require, in relationships, that we can trust our partners. Perhaps you do not, but a prerequisite of trust is a reason to trust. One of those many reasons is honesty; how can I trust someone who does not give a damn what I think? How I feel? What I wish, or what would please me, or what I think would be best for us? A relationship is not built upon one persons wishes; partners give up a good portion of themselves to create the union; selfishness sets back the unity.


Yes, any and every creature is able to cast aside my wishes; and I should not be expected to neither care nor act accordingly.

[Darren]

Yes, any and every creature is able to cast aside my wishes; and I should not be expected to neither care nor act accordingly.

I am not suggesting that you ought to keep trusting someone who has betrayed you, that would be folly (or as you suggest - suicide).
Do you trust your Mom and I? (let's, for the sake of argument, assume you trust your Mom implicitly, and me very little, as I am a stranger).
If you need someone to look after 25,000$ cash, would you just hand it to your Mom and say "please hold this for me"? Would you do the same for me?
I think you would trust your Mom just on her word, and for me, you would require a contract (since there is no reason to trust me).
If your Mom then lost the cash in a mugging, would you believe her story, or ask to see a police report?
What if it was me?
The thread asked if anyone was justified (lets just say 'just') in having an affair. I say yes, simply because someone wouldn't risk all that is risked in such a venture without thinking it was justified. Only YOU are in charge of your genitals:)