The idea of "sin" is wrong.

[playhavock]

"Sin" is - loosly defined as anything that is agenst Gods commands and/or (the way god is) in fact, no one can not be in sin since God is perfect (apprently)
So, no matter what you do you are "wrong" and must be forgen (constantly?) for this, making one feel very down or bad on themselfs. I find the idea and very consept of sin to be wrong. Perhaps someone will have a difernet concept of what sin is, and I can analise that one and see if it too is offencive.

[Ankhhape]

So, you believe voluntary artificial insemination is rape? I guess that follows the trend. The life of the child is in the mind of the mother.

Heh? How is immaculate conception voluntary insemination? Do you know what coveting another man's wife means? I see a lot of hypocrisy in this god.

I am sure you do. That is because you do not know the Scriptures. (Lk. 1:38) "And Mary said, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word'. And the angel departed from her." There is also no record of sex. Therefore, this is voluntary insemination. In fact, you do not even seem to be aware of RCC dogma. The "immaculate conception" does not refer to the conception of Yeshua(Jesus), but the conception of Miriam(Mary).

Ahh, but I do know your scriptures, and none of them were written by anyone else but man.
Immaculate conception is older than Christianity, the idea has been used and re-used over & over.

If god told your 14 yr old daughter/wife that he needs to impregnate her, would you be so accepting?

This is just another wild fantastic delusion written into an equally wild and fantastic fiction.

Be rational for god's sake

[freeman]

Since all fall short of the glory of God (perfection), faith is credited to us as righteousness. That is what the second covenant is all about. Claiming that sin is right because you fall short of perfection is mostly the ramblings of a rebellious child throwing a tantrum and claiming the tantrum is right because he wants it to be. Simply love God and keep your faith and you're good to go. Why all the argument?

"Sin" is - loosly defined as anything that is agenst Gods commands and/or (the way god is) in fact, no one can not be in sin since God is perfect (apprently)
So, no matter what you do you are "wrong" and must be forgen (constantly?) for this, making one feel very down or bad on themselfs. I find the idea and very consept of sin to be wrong. Perhaps someone will have a difernet concept of what sin is, and I can analise that one and see if it too is offencive.

[JohnPaul]

freeman wrote:

Since all fall short of the glory of God (perfection), faith is credited to us as righteousness. That is what the second covenant is all about. Claiming that sin is right because you fall short of perfection is mostly the ramblings of a rebellious child throwing a tantrum and claiming the tantrum is right because he wants it to be. Simply love God and keep your faith and you're good to go. Why all the argument?

Love God? But what if God is throwing one of his famous vindictive, wrathful, irrational tantrums at the time?

[freeman]

freeman wrote:

Since all fall short of the glory of God (perfection), faith is credited to us as righteousness. That is what the second covenant is all about. Claiming that sin is right because you fall short of perfection is mostly the ramblings of a rebellious child throwing a tantrum and claiming the tantrum is right because he wants it to be. Simply love God and keep your faith and you're good to go. Why all the argument?

Love God? But what if God is throwing one of his famous vindictive, wrathful, irrational tantrums at the time?

My wife does that and I still love her.

[Nickman]

I think there is no such thing as sin. Only good things and bad things. I read in this thread about the "fall" and I disagree. I think anyone can realize how unfair the fall is and how silly it is. In no way would any god in the right mind punish you or me for something someone else has done. Thats ludacris. Would any christian punish one of your children for what the other one has done? The answer is no. It makes no sense anyway you try to sugar coat it. The main problem with the garden narrative is the fall, among other problems, but the fall is something that supposedly affects everyone. In some "genius" plan of this creator he decides to punish trillions because of one persons mistake of eating some kind of fruit. Thats just ridiculous. Some may have other interpretations, but I think that deep inside every christian they question how silly and unfair of a notion this is. On another note it is doubly. Unfair to send a person to save us when we never asked to be saved and the only way to be saved is to give our lives to this person. That is totalitarianism at its best. Basically what this says is you have to do what I say or you will not be happy after death. You must love me even though I created you to be at odds with me of which you are by default a sinner and will be punished. The only way out is to worship me even though im insane and unjust as well as bipolar.

[Slopeshoulder]

I think there is no such thing as sin. Only good things and bad things. I read in this thread about the "fall" and I disagree. I think anyone can realize how unfair the fall is and how silly it is. In no way would any god in the right mind punish you or me for something someone else has done. Thats ludacris. Would any christian punish one of your children for what the other one has done? The answer is no. It makes no sense anyway you try to sugar coat it. The main problem with the garden narrative is the fall, among other problems, but the fall is something that supposedly affects everyone. In some "genius" plan of this creator he decides to punish trillions because of one persons mistake of eating some kind of fruit. Thats just ridiculous. Some may have other interpretations, but I think that deep inside every christian they question how silly and unfair of a notion this is. On another note it is doubly. Unfair to send a person to save us when we never asked to be saved and the only way to be saved is to give our lives to this person. That is totalitarianism at its best. Basically what this says is you have to do what I say or you will not be happy after death. You must love me even though I created you to be at odds with me of which you are by default a sinner and will be punished. The only way out is to worship me even though im insane and unjust as well as bipolar.

I think you've done a good job of taking apart the traditional and current right wing idea of Christianity.
But you can read sin and the fall differently, with greater sophistication. For example, you could say that the story, the primal myth, teaches us that we can be narcissistic, that we cause ourselves to suffer, that there is something radically finite about our nature, that we usually fail to live up to our best moral aspirations, that we are alienated from the core of what is good (e.g. God, others, our true nature, a paradise we are meant for) and wandering in search of integration and wholeness, that we are not perfectable, or that our perfection is achieved when we get past our ego, and, for a theist, that we are dependent for all this on an other. And that, later, Jesus represents what it looks like when we get it together, told in a story where conquering the spirit of death is at the core. I find that all that very amenable, meaningful, and compelling. It's like cool aspects of judaism, buddhism, and christianity all together.
YMMV. But we agree that the fundamentalist-evangelical narrative is problematic.

[freeman]

Additionally I would like to add that the original sin was not biting the fruit, as many are being falsely lead to believe, but the original sin comes before that. Adam & Eve listened to the lies of Satan, who was Lucifer, and lost their faith in God. That is the original sin. It is by faith we must come back to God. That is our inheritance.
If you wish to condemn a religion, you should first learn the truth of it's doctrine.

[Slopeshoulder]

Additionally I would like to add that the original sin was not biting the fruit, as many are being falsely lead to believe, but the original sin comes before that. Adam & Eve listened to the lies of Satan, who was Lucifer, and lost their faith in God. That is the original sin. It is by faith we must come back to God. That is our inheritance.
If you wish to condemn a religion, you should first learn the truth of it's doctrine.

In modern terms, this means we are trapped in ego and will to power.
It is by overcoming this alienation from true self that we get back to "God."
A classic spiritual-mythic journey trope.
Good stuff.

[Nickman]

I think there is no such thing as sin. Only good things and bad things. I read in this thread about the "fall" and I disagree. I think anyone can realize how unfair the fall is and how silly it is. In no way would any god in the right mind punish you or me for something someone else has done. Thats ludacris. Would any christian punish one of your children for what the other one has done? The answer is no. It makes no sense anyway you try to sugar coat it. The main problem with the garden narrative is the fall, among other problems, but the fall is something that supposedly affects everyone. In some "genius" plan of this creator he decides to punish trillions because of one persons mistake of eating some kind of fruit. Thats just ridiculous. Some may have other interpretations, but I think that deep inside every christian they question how silly and unfair of a notion this is. On another note it is doubly. Unfair to send a person to save us when we never asked to be saved and the only way to be saved is to give our lives to this person. That is totalitarianism at its best. Basically what this says is you have to do what I say or you will not be happy after death. You must love me even though I created you to be at odds with me of which you are by default a sinner and will be punished. The only way out is to worship me even though im insane and unjust as well as bipolar.

I think you've done a good job of taking apart the traditional and current right wing idea of Christianity.
But you can read sin and the fall differently, with greater sophistication. For example, you could say that the story, the primal myth, teaches us that we can be narcissistic, that we cause ourselves to suffer, that there is something radically finite about our nature, that we usually fail to live up to our best moral aspirations, that we are alienated from the core of what is good (e.g. God, others, our true nature, a paradise we are meant for) and wandering in search of integration and wholeness, that we are not perfectable, or that our perfection is achieved when we get past our ego, and, for a theist, that we are dependent for all this on an other. And that, later, Jesus represents what it looks like when we get it together, told in a story where conquering the spirit of death is at the core. I find that all that very amenable, meaningful, and compelling. It's like cool aspects of judaism, buddhism, and christianity all together.
YMMV. But we agree that the fundamentalist-evangelical narrative is problematic.

Yes the fundamentalist interpretation is very problematic, but I think that all interpretations are as well. I am not a sinner. I don't sin because there is no such thing to me. In my understanding of life there are only good and bad choices. These good and bad choices have nothing to do with morals or any divine being or spark inside me. I make choices based on what is beneficial and the consequence of the action contemplated. Is it good to murder? Yes and no! No if for the wrong reasons such as a thrill or an impulse to cause harm. Yes if I am defending myself or my family from harm just as any animal would when threatened. So in each choice there needs to be a weighing of the pros and cons to determine whether or not the decision is good or bad. This is the way I look at life.

I don't think Jesus is a very good example for the model human. He was no better than any human. On one occasion he says, "whoever calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire". Yet he calls the Pharisees fools. He wasn't very pleasant to be around and to the pharisees was very mean and bully like. He did not follow his own teachings when it came to the pharisees. He didn't try to save them. He only ridiculed them and condemned them.

I feel my life is absolutely awesome and I don't say that with any bit of an ego boost. I have a choice to make good or bad decisions and if I want to make a bad one such as drinking too much, I can, or I can decide not too. The ball is in my court. I feel no fear of punishment for a bad decision from a god, only a disappointment in myself which then motivates me to do better for me. For a good decision I don't look to the sky for some reward, I reap the reward from my own actions. I do what is right because it is right not from fear or expectation of a reward.

[Nickman]

Additionally I would like to add that the original sin was not biting the fruit, as many are being falsely lead to believe, but the original sin comes before that. Adam & Eve listened to the lies of Satan, who was Lucifer, and lost their faith in God. That is the original sin. It is by faith we must come back to God. That is our inheritance.
If you wish to condemn a religion, you should first learn the truth of it's doctrine.

And you are happy with this scenario? Your ok with a god that is punishing you for something you had nothing to do with? How would you feel if you got charged for a crime by association just because you were the same race as the actual criminal? That is racial profiling at its earliest use. God condemned you before you were born because your human. He never gave you a chance to not partake of the fruit and stay in a perfected state and commune with him. He automatically condemned you to death before you were even born and your ok with that teaching? Your ok that now he will not allow anyone to see him, he cant be detected by any of our senses, yet he expects you to accept him and love him even though he condemned you before you were born? That is the same as an abortion. Before you were born he already aborted you to death and exile from him. He doesn't want anything to do with you unless you do it his way. Unless you follow his insane plan of "salvation" he doesn't want anything to do with you. He also wants 10 percent of your money. Are you truly satisfied with this?