Gun Control

[Sender]

This topic of discussion should break down barriers we may otherwise have. I hope I am in the right forum.

What are your thoughts?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Cops commit violent crimes far more often than the general population. I don't have any statistics, but I remember reading it was about ten times higher on a per capita basis. Searching on the net for it is hopeless, and it's not a statistic people like to publicize.

So its a statistic that no one can verify?


I'm not just going to take it for granted, I need to see the source of this claim. Honestly, I don't hear about many (if any) crimes committed by cops. Are they all sheltered from public ears? I have a hard time believing so, given the sheer amount of invasive journalists/reporters who live off stories such as this.

I wouldn't be overly surprised if this (supposed) statistic was vaugely accurate. A cops very job is to put himself in the middle of violent crimes. But under what circumstances do they (supposedly) commit these crimes themselves? Are most of them committed in unprovoked aggression? Or is it a spur of the moment reaction, deterrance taken too far, or some form of self defense? You have got to be more specific.

And I do think cops would be a lot more aggresive if there where much less chance that the people around them were armed.

If no one was armed, there would be no *NEED* for cops to be aggressive.

I can recall only a single police brutality court case. An officer stopped a speeder on the side of the road. The man that was pulled over got out of his car(first suspicious sign), and for reasons unknown, the car he was driving started moving forward. He leaped in to pull the emergency break, and the cop shot him in the leg, apparently under the immpression that he was reaching for a gun.

You are right, an armed public keeps cops on their toes. Consequently, they are thay much more likely to pull the trigger when afronted with anything remotely suspicious.

Ban guns, and police weapons might as well be downgraded to sticks again.

I am all for limiting cop's law enforcement powers. But as long as the public is allowed unlimited access to guns, we must equipt and train our officer's with a threat to match.

[axeplayer]

what use (except hunting) is a firearm to a supposed christian?

Well, let's see here.

1. To protect my home.

2. To protect myself

3. To protect my family

4. To prevent any tyrannical governments from ruling me

5. To do my constitutional duty.


If we take guns away from law abiding civilians it would be the worst mistake by the United States Government since Row v. Wade. Criminals will always have guns, whether we outlaw them or not. Additionally, organized crime would skyrocket as a result of banned firearms: it's one more high demand product that could be smuggled into the country and sold for high prices (1930s anyone?). Also, having guns in my house is a huge deterrent to criminals. My father for instance has a fully loaded Browning .380 handgun on his closet shelf. Neither he nor I would hesitate to shoot anyone attempting to commit a crime against us. Without guns, law abiding citizens would be helpless against the impending onslaught of criminal activity.

[juliod]

1. To protect my home.

The bible tells you to give your belongings to anyone who might steal them.

2. To protect myself

The bible tells you to not resist those who offer you violence.

3. To protect my family

Ditto.

4. To prevent any tyrannical governments from ruling me

The bible tells you to obey the government.

5. To do my constitutional duty.

The Constitution does not specify a duty for you. The bible tells you can't serve both a country and "the lord".

Neither he nor I would hesitate to shoot anyone attempting to commit a crime against us.

And yet Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself.

Seems a pretty violent version of christianity you got there.

DanZ

[McCulloch]

what use (except hunting) is a firearm to a supposed christian?

Well, let's see here.
1. To protect my home.
2. To protect myself
3. To protect my family
4. To prevent any tyrannical governments from ruling me
5. To do my constitutional duty.

Why would a Christian need protection? Christ said to turn the other cheek and to give to those who would take things from you. So your answers 1 to 3 seems to be at odds with your Christianity.
What does the Bible say is to be the Christian response to tyrannical governments? (need a hint? ). It appears as if your answer 4 is contrary to your alleged Christianity. Are you sure that you are really a Christian?
I am sure that if you were required to use a gun for some constitutional duty, that your government would provide the necessary firearms.

[juliod]

I am sure that if you were required to use a gun for some constitutional duty, that your government would provide the necessary firearms.

And of course a True Christian would refuse...

DanZ

[OccamsRazor]

Well, let's see here.
1. To protect my home.
2. To protect myself
3. To protect my family

This argument is the most scary pro-firearms argument.

Lets have a look at some statistics from 1994.

France, Canada, The UK and Japan, all countries which ban unlicenced citizens from carrying firearms, have, collectively the same population as The USA, a country which constitutionally allows any citizen to carry one.

In 1994 France, Canada, The UK and Japan 5,213 people were killed by guns. In the USA this number is 39,872.
Of the 36 countries which supplied statistics on gun related deaths, the USA accounted for 45% of the total.

I cannot see how the US gun laws protect you.

Here is my source for the above statistics

[OccamsRazor]

4. To prevent any tyrannical governments from ruling me

I always wonder about this statement. How many tyrannical governments are marching toward the USA? I suspect that it is rather the USA who is exterting its military force elsewhere.

[McCulloch]

This argument is the most scary pro-firearms argument.
Lets have a look at some statistics from 1994.
France, Canada, The UK and Japan, all countries which ban unlicenced citizens from carrying firearms, have, collectively the same population as The USA, a country which constitutionally allows any citizen to carry one.
In 1994 France, Canada, The UK and Japan 5,213 people were killed by guns. In the USA this number is 39,872.
Of the 36 countries which supplied statistics on gun related deaths, the USA accounted for 45% of the total.
I cannot see how the US gun laws protect you.

The US gun laws don't even protect me. Since we share the world's longest undefended border with the US, a large proportion of the gun related deaths in Canada are attributable to guns smuggled in from the US.

... In the past five years, authorities have seized more than 5,400 firearms coming into the country from the United States, a figure believed to represent a fraction of the northward flow. The lion's share of those weapons -- some 3,695 -- were handguns, which tells you something about who was doing the buying. Pistols, after all, are the tools of the urban street gang, and a threefold growth in gang-related killings since the mid-1990s is the one glaring exception to Canada's overall decline in violent crime. At the same time, handguns have been steadily supplanting long-barrelled guns as weapons of choice in gun homicides, reflecting what experts see as a critical shift in the nature of violent crime in Canada. ... Another problem is America's ongoing love affair with firearms, which gun control advocates say blinds it to the fears of its neighbours. The latest statistics indicate there's a gun in America for nearly every one of the country's 280 million people, and the anti-firearms lobby is getting nowhere with Republicans in control of Congress and the White House. While the ATF [U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives] and other agencies have worked diligently to help Canadian police, the sheer volume of firearms south of the border makes their work appear futile.

[kctheshootinfool]

Well, let's see here.
1. To protect my home.
2. To protect myself
3. To protect my family

This argument is the most scary pro-firearms argument.

Lets have a look at some statistics from 1994.

France, Canada, The UK and Japan, all countries which ban unlicenced citizens from carrying firearms, have, collectively the same population as The USA, a country which constitutionally allows any citizen to carry one.

In 1994 France, Canada, The UK and Japan 5,213 people were killed by guns. In the USA this number is 39,872.
Of the 36 countries which supplied statistics on gun related deaths, the USA accounted for 45% of the total.

I cannot see how the US gun laws protect you.

Here is my source for the above statistics

But, by all means, let's be careful how we wield this argument. The militia was always established with the intention of keeping the citizens capable of defending themselves against an oppressive government -- including our OWN government should a majority of Americans feel our Constitutional rights are being jeopardized. The colonies went to war with England over much lower -- though unrepresented -- taxation than we willingly accept these days. The south once tried, and failed, to free itself from the union The armed citizen is a "check" on the power of government.

As for gun control itself, and Christianity: Yes, Jesus would have likely said to "turn the other cheek." He also said, "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword". That said, I also do believe Jesus would have justified a man defending himself and his family. The Old testament certainly does!! But why DISARM law-abiding citizens? It's not the tax-paying, law-abiding citizens who legally obtained firearms that are involved in most gun-related crimes. It's the guns obtained by criminals, either legally or illegally. I know it's cliche, but has always been true -- "Guns dont kill people, PEOPLE DO!!" (specifically, BAD people).

Let's also consider the logic, or lack therof. If we are to make guns illegal because there are bad people in the world who will use them with criminal intentions, then we should ban all knives, cutlery, sharp tools such as hammers, axes and saws, heavy mallets, etc, not to mention hunting bows and arrows!! Sounds silly? No more silly than requiring an honest man who uses a shotgun for hunting, or any gun for target/sport shooting, to give up his "tools of the trade". The 9/11 hijackings were a 75% success because the passengers didnt know it was suicide mission, and they were held at bay with UTILITY KNIVES and the threat of a bomb. Should we ban all utility knives, and refuse engineers the use of demolition explosives? Will UPS and Fedex clerks have to open boxes with their finger nails and builders cut materials with their teeth because a psychopath might buy a saw from Home Depot and mutilate his ex-girlfriend??

It just doesnt make sense to punish, and DISARM, the law-abiding people because there are criminals who will use these tools for evil purposes. That's like saying WE are at fault for using knives, because if it werent for OUR selfish desire to cut meat, criminals and psychopaths wouldnt be tempted to stab people.

[McCulloch]

The armed citizen is a "check" on the power of government.

Really? How does that work? Let's say that you feel that your elected government has overstepped its authority and will not let you make unlicensed moonshine. How is being an armed citizen "check" this abuse of power? Don't the law enforcement services in your country have more firepower available to them than you could possibly imagine having? Is armed rebellion the best way to check abuses of power? I should think that in the entire history of your country, more abuses of power have been checked by the legal protections built into your constitution than by armed citizens. Oh, and just how many times have abuses of power within your country been prevented by armed civilians?

As for gun control itself, and Christianity: Yes, Jesus would have likely said to "turn the other cheek." He also said, "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword".

It is sometimes suprising how few alleged Christians can quote their Bible in context.

And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

I don't quite see how this saying is an endorsement of an armed citizenry by Jesus, do you?

That said, I also do believe Jesus would have justified a man defending himself and his family.

You do, do you? Why do you say that? Is there anything that he is quoted as saying that would lead you to that conclusion?

The Old testament certainly does!!

You are right there. It also condemns eating pork and wearing mixed fibers.

But why DISARM law-abiding citizens? It's not the tax-paying, law-abiding citizens who legally obtained firearms that are involved in most gun-related crimes. It's the guns obtained by criminals, either legally or illegally.

Many of them stolen from the homes of almost law abiding citizens who do not properly and safely store their arsenal.

Let's also consider the logic, or lack therof. If we are to make guns illegal because there are bad people in the world who will use them with criminal intentions, then we should ban all knives, cutlery, sharp tools such as hammers, axes and saws, heavy mallets, etc, not to mention hunting bows and arrows!! Sounds silly? No more silly than requiring an honest man who uses a shotgun for hunting, or any gun for target/sport shooting, to give up his "tools of the trade".

The easy solution to that problem is to license guns. Automobiles are dangerous and so are guns. We license automobiles. You must pass a test to prove to the authorities that you can safely handle a vehicle before you are issued a license. If you drive a vehicle without a license, you are guilty of breaking the law. Why shouldn't guns be licensed? Why shouldn't those who use guns in an unsafe way, lose the right to bear arms?
But apart from that, many guns were designed for only one thing. Killing people. Pistols and handguns are not hunting weapons.