Prostitution

[ST88]

There are a number of places where prostitution is legal, such as the Netherlands, Spain, Germany, and parts of Nevada. My experience is that a majority of Americans view it as a universally immoral act, and a sizable minority view it as a victimless crime.

Should prostitution be legal?

What are the societal implications of legalization?

Is prostitution wrong?
Please define or explain your sense of right and wrong if you choose to answer this.

[ST88]

corvus
The point is, it doesn't have to be that way under a system where prostitute is legal and regulated.
Did you know most illegal prostitutes don't want their lifestyle legalized?

This hardly matters.
A) You are arguing that prostitutes are nothing more than slaves, and have given up their right to be "persons" as society defines it, so you shouldn't be persuaded by anything they say.
B) Do you think that rum runners wanted to legalize drinking during Prohibition? Do you believe that drug lords want cocaine legalized?
C) Personal opinion should not matter when dealing with individual rights under the law. The only thing that matters is the interpretation of the law.

[Regular_Guy]

corvus
The point is, it doesn't have to be that way under a system where prostitute is legal and regulated.
Did you know most illegal prostitutes don't want their lifestyle legalized?

This hardly matters.
A) You are arguing that prostitutes are nothing more than slaves, and have given up their right to be "persons" as society defines it, so you shouldn't be persuaded by anything they say.
B) Do you think that rum runners wanted to legalize drinking during Prohibition? Do you believe that drug lords want cocaine legalized?
C) Personal opinion should not matter when dealing with individual rights under the law. The only thing that matters is the interpretation of the law.

1. Im arguing that prostitution should not be legalized. Any yes I listen all sides of the story before making a decision, so it should come as no surprise when one side of prostitution say's they wouldn't want it legalized, and I agree
2. Most certainly drug lords want their cocaine legalized. Do you agree with them? I don't.
3. Why have a jury them? I am proof that personal opinion has mattered when dealing with individual rights under the law.
I feel prostitution should not be legalized because of
Article I Section 10: No state shall...pass any ...law impairing the obligation of contract

[blondiefreak890]

ST88 wrote:
Is prostitution wrong?
Please define or explain your sense of right and wrong if you choose to answer this.


No i dont think prostitution is wrong and i do think it should be legal because its not up to the goverment to what u want to w/ ur body and if a woman or man has no food or home than by all means go out and prostitute your self but be self considerite of ur self and of others and use a condom and before u do ne of that go check and c if u have ne diseseas that u wuldnt want to pass around to every one.

[ST88]

1. Im arguing that prostitution should not be legalized. Any yes I listen all sides of the story before making a decision, so it should come as no surprise when one side of prostitution say's they wouldn't want it legalized, and I agree

Did you ask them why they don't want it legalized, or did you assume they just agreed with you?

2. Most certainly drug lords want their cocaine legalized. Do you agree with them? I don't.

Why would drug lords want their livelihoods erased by law? They stand to lose millions of dollars and even prestige among their community, such as it is. The thrill would be gone, as would the lifestyle.

3. Why have a jury them? I am proof that personal opinion has mattered when dealing with individual rights under the law.

The jury system isn't built on opinion, it's built on how well the attorneys can describe how the law should work to a random group of individuals. We don't expect that jurors will become automatons just because they're in the box, but we also don't expect that they will base their decisions on their opinions of what is true. The mind is able to reason given enough information and nuance.

I feel prostitution should not be legalized because of
Article I Section 10: No state shall...pass any ...law impairing the obligation of contract

I fail to see what this has to do with it. Please explain for my tired little eyes.

[Corvus]

corvus
The point is, it doesn't have to be that way under a system where prostitute is legal and regulated.
Did you know most illegal prostitutes don't want their lifestyle legalized?

Did you know that you should provide evidence for these sorts of claims?

As I say, we don't see masseuses prowling the streets. If legal, it would be expected that a prostitute not have the same rights as a busker does. That is to say, if prostitution is legal, it can be zoned in appropriate areas and prostitutes would be required to ply their trade in brothels, where employers can also ensure that they are at least paid a decent wage and given frequent health checks. We call that regulation and consider it a good thing.
Your not at the other end of the regulation, so you can't say it's a "good"
thing. Try looking at all aspects of the problem before handing out a solution.

I, and others, have outlined the benefits of legalisation. I have yet to see any benefits of keeping it illegal.

And, if you admit to seeing them so often while you pass, how is letting prostitution remain illegal helping in any way, except in reinforcing that social stigma you pointed out.

Yes, I stigmatize them whenever I see them. I feel all criminals should be stigmatized

You stigmatise them when you see them. That isn't particularly nice, and you're unlikely to help their situation. If you are going to stigmatise them, you should do it when they aren't around, in a stern tone, while in the hearing of a girl whose impression on prostitution is yet to be formed. When she grows older she will hopefully remember her moralising uncle or older brother or whatnot and say, "Gosh, isn't prostitution an awful thing? I'll never be a prostitute!"

By the stance i've taken im helping the problem rather than looking towards the solution? I don't believe I am. I believe im keeping the "greater good" in mind.

I think you are keeping the greater good in mind, just not keeping it out in the world. I don't see how it is helping prostitutes to stigmatise them so. It's only perpetuating disrespect for women who may not have much self esteem anyway.

Your only going to sell yourself to women?

Most men are ugly.

Why not just do porn instead? There's more money there I believe.[/b]

Yes, but it's more structured, and the thespian in me refuses to recite some awful dialogue from some horrid script for the purposes of some scripted sex. Give me the liberty of unscripted sex any day.

Prostitution is not a license for someone to do as they please to someone else.
Are you serious? If a man gives a prostitute money and demands sex,
and the prostitute agrees, Id say the man just did as he pleases

Er, well, yes, he did do as he pleased, but he can't do anything he pleases. Like getting the prostitute to wash his car, tickle his feet with her nose or beat her up. Well, unless they both agree to it beforehand and settle on the terms, in which case, it ceases to be prostitution (the exchange of sex or sexual acts for money) since anyone can agree to that sort of contract.

It's a contract to do specific sexual acts. You seem to be saying that it would be difficult to decide whether the prostitute "asked for it" or not, and therefore, we can't make that decision and prostitution should remain illegal. Other than the fact that it remaining illegal doesn't solve anything, I say such an argument is nonsense, and can be applied to any private abuse, such as "the domestic".
The prostitute is not necessarily also a masochist. If you cannot tell the difference between physical abuse and intercourse or other sexual acts, then "get thee hence to a monastery!".
I would love to live in your world for just one day. You seem to live slightly out of phase with my plane. I knew this girl once who would cut herself. Why? She said that's how she got off. (I was also thinking freak)
Freaks are out there.

I note your compassion for those with mental disorders.

They may not be the majority, but they exist. Making a law that would be of some benefit to them I say is the real nonsense..

The legalisation of prostitution will not suddenly make a mental disorder acceptable. In fact, one would expect that if a woman with masochistic tendencies was employed in a registered business like a brothel, the employers would seek some sort of help, (at least in Australia this sort of legislation exists emphasising obligations to employees) so it's unlikely to increase it.

But a prostitute does not give up the protection that would be afforded her if she was an everyday citizen walking the street. Yet you seem to be saying she does. I don't see why. You are saying that the prostitute is not given the same safeguards as any other worker has.
Can you please be more specific? Are you referring to a legal or illegal or if prostitution were made legal prostitute?

If made legal, a prostitute should be given the same protections and rights as any other worker.

[Regular_Guy]

1. Im arguing that prostitution should not be legalized. Any yes I listen all sides of the story before making a decision, so it should come as no surprise when one side of prostitution say's they wouldn't want it legalized, and I agree

Did you ask them why they don't want it legalized, or did you assume they just agreed with you?
I did a little research on the subject.
The following is from http://www.brianmclark.com/writing/prostitution.html
One of many i assure you.-
"Thus, though legalization would be an improvement over the current state of prostitution here in the United States, most prostitute’s rights advocates feel that decriminalization would be a preferable solution, as it takes all aspects of a prostitute’s work into account."
.

2. Most certainly drug lords want their cocaine legalized. Do you agree with them? I don't.

Why would drug lords want their livelihoods erased by law? They stand to lose millions of dollars and even prestige among their community, such as it is. The thrill would be gone, as would the lifestyle.
If cocaine were made legal Drug lords could lower their prices and make more money than they already do. What thrill? The thrill of breaking the law and almost getting caught? There will always be laws to break. Legalized cocaine wouldn't jeapordize their lifestyle
.

3. Why have a jury them? I am proof that personal opinion has mattered when dealing with individual rights under the law.

The jury system isn't built on opinion, it's built on how well the attorneys can describe how the law should work to a random group of individuals. We don't expect that jurors will become automatons just because they're in the box, but we also don't expect that they will base their decisions on their opinions of what is true. The mind is able to reason given enough information and nuance.
I've been on a jury and I gave my personal opinion after all the info. was presented.
.

I feel prostitution should not be legalized because of
Article I Section 10: No state shall...pass any ...law impairing the obligation of contract

I fail to see what this has to do with it. Please explain for my tired little eyes.
For all the reasons I've stated I believe legalized prostitution is a step towards slavery.

[Regular_Guy]

Corvus
Did you know that you should provide evidence for these sorts of claims?
The following is from

http://www.brianmclark.com/writing/prostitution.html

"Thus, though legalization would be an improvement over the current state of prostitution here in the United States, most prostitute’s rights advocates feel that decriminalization would be a preferable solution, as it takes all aspects of a prostitute’s work into account."

http://feministing.com/archives/000486.html

What we should think about is the 2,000 prostitutes that are murdered every year. Murder is the number one cause of death among street-walkers. Decriminalizing prostitution would be giving prostitutes some power over their lives, like the power and freedom to go to a health care clinic that will test them for HIV, or to the police if they are raped and/or beaten. The lives of these women should be priority, no?

http://www.swop-usa.org/ballot%20qualif ... lease.html

The concept of decriminalizing prostitution is embraced by the Green Party as well as the Libertarians

http://www.independentcollegian.com/med ... 1835.shtml

Few, executive director for Sex Workers Outreach Project located in San Francisco, is a former prostitute working on decriminalizing prostitution in California.

I, and others, have outlined the benefits of legalization. I have yet to see any benefits of keeping it illegal.
I suggest you keep looking. I see the main benefit of keeping it illegal, I see slavery immanent should it be legalized.

You stigmatize them when you see them. That isn't particularly nice, and you're unlikely to help their situation.
Ohh my I bet you do the same thing, you just wont admit it. Ok here's a small relevant test.. Ready... Ok here goes...
What do you think of Michael Jackson???
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/attachm ... ntid=42991

If you are going to stigmatize them, you should do it when they aren't around, in a stern tone, while in the hearing of a girl whose impression on prostitution is yet to be formed. When she grows older she will hopefully remember her moralising uncle or older brother or whatnot and say, "Gosh, isn't prostitution an awful thing? I'll never be a prostitute!"
*looking for the sleeping icon*
wha??

I think you are keeping the greater good in mind, just not keeping it out in the world. I don't see how it is helping prostitutes to stigmatize them so. It's only perpetuating disrespect for women who may not have much self esteem anyway
Right..... and legalizing prostitution will somehow magically make the stigmatism vanish into thin air.


Most men are ugly
Err. What about a beautiful man?

Yes, but it's more structured, and the thespian in me refuses to recite some awful dialogue from some horrid script for the purposes of some scripted sex. Give me the liberty of unscripted sex any day.
Prostitution isn't scripted? Please, everythings planned to the T. If your looking unscripted sex, a prostitute is the last person you want see.

Er, well, yes, he did do as he pleased, but he can't do anything he pleases. Like getting the prostitute to wash his car, tickle his feet with her nose or beat her up. Well, unless they both agree to it beforehand and settle on the terms, in which case, it ceases to be prostitution (the exchange of sex or sexual acts for money) since anyone can agree to that sort of contract.
Err.. The definition for sexual acts is objective. Ex: A woman washing a car naked lathered and soaked might be just what the person ordered.
Im not kidding when I say there are some real freaks out there

I note your compassion for those with mental disorders.
Ouch. Nice zing ......... Life is a competition, the sooner you realize it the better your off. Basically I usually won't go out of my way to help someone.

They may not be the majority, but they exist. Making a law that would be of some benefit to them I say is the real nonsense.[/b].

The legalization of prostitution will not suddenly make a mental disorder acceptable. In fact, one would expect that if a woman with masochistic tendencies was employed in a registered business like a brothel, the employers would seek some sort of help, (at least in Australia this sort of legislation exists emphasizing obligations to employees) so it's unlikely to increase it.

If made legal, a prostitute should be given the same protections and rights as any other worker.
Should, but often doesn't in the case of already legal prostitution. That is why it should not be legalized.

[Corvus]

Corvus
Did you know that you should provide evidence for these sorts of claims?
The following is from

http://www.brianmclark.com/writing/prostitution.html

"Thus, though legalization would be an improvement over the current state of prostitution here in the United States, most prostitute’s rights advocates feel that decriminalization would be a preferable solution, as it takes all aspects of a prostitute’s work into account."

I admit that I didn't visit all those websites, since I'm at school and I'm not sure the administration would approve of me visiting sites about prostitution, but judging from the extracts, I don't see how this invalidates what I've said. Your point was that prostitutes don't want prostitution legalised. The above quote doesn't say that. What it says is that legalisation would be an improvement, but decriminalisation is preferable. This still goes against you, since decriminalisation is basically legalisation with regulation. Exactly what I've been arguing for.

I, and others, have outlined the benefits of legalization. I have yet to see any benefits of keeping it illegal.
I suggest you keep looking. I see the main benefit of keeping it illegal, I see slavery immanent should it be legalized.

And I'm afraid I don't see a sexual act sold at a price as slavery.

You stigmatize them when you see them. That isn't particularly nice, and you're unlikely to help their situation.
Ohh my I bet you do the same thing, you just wont admit it. Ok here's a small relevant test.. Ready... Ok here goes...
What do you think of Michael Jackson???
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/attachm ... ntid=42991

I don't think of Michael Jackson. In fact, I try to avoid thinking about Michael Jackson as much as possible.

The forum you linked to asked me to register as a member, and I don't feel the need to register for a forum to know about Michael Jackson. The court seems to think he's innocent of doing things with children, though. I'm indifferent to it all.

If you are going to stigmatize them, you should do it when they aren't around, in a stern tone, while in the hearing of a girl whose impression on prostitution is yet to be formed. When she grows older she will hopefully remember her moralising uncle or older brother or whatnot and say, "Gosh, isn't prostitution an awful thing? I'll never be a prostitute!"

*looking for the sleeping icon*
wha??

She might do that instead.

I think you are keeping the greater good in mind, just not keeping it out in the world. I don't see how it is helping prostitutes to stigmatize them so. It's only perpetuating disrespect for women who may not have much self esteem anyway
Right..... and legalizing prostitution will somehow magically make the stigmatism vanish into thin air.

Oh no, they need stigmatism, otherwise they wouldn't be able to see what they are doing. But if you mean legalising prostitution will not make the stigma vanish into the air, you're right, it won't. It might decrease it, but by no means will it go away. Obviously, the existence of a stigma is dependent on people holding a view that prostitution is a horrible thing. If people, like yourself, esteemed prostitutes a little more highly, then that stigma might disappear.

Most men are ugly
Err. What about a beautiful man?

I'd have to think about it. If prostitution was legal, I would have to know if the laws allowed me to select which clients I can service.

Yes, but it's more structured, and the thespian in me refuses to recite some awful dialogue from some horrid script for the purposes of some scripted sex. Give me the liberty of unscripted sex any day.
Prostitution isn't scripted? Please, everythings planned to the T. If your looking unscripted sex, a prostitute is the last person you want see.

Of course it's not planned. I don't want to go into too many details, but you do realise that there's more than one way to do it, don't you? And that customers would come to you for different things?

Er, well, yes, he did do as he pleased, but he can't do anything he pleases. Like getting the prostitute to wash his car, tickle his feet with her nose or beat her up. Well, unless they both agree to it beforehand and settle on the terms, in which case, it ceases to be prostitution (the exchange of sex or sexual acts for money) since anyone can agree to that sort of contract.
Err.. The definition for sexual acts is objective. Ex: A woman washing a car naked lathered and soaked might be just what the person ordered.
Im not kidding when I say there are some real freaks out there

I'm not sure we should stop people from washing cars naked, lathered and soaked, so long as they don't do it out in public. Nor do I consider that at all "freaky". It might be just the thing on a hot day, and it ensures one's clothes do not become wet. I would do it for my own pleasure.

If made legal, a prostitute should be given the same protections and rights as any other worker.
Should, but often doesn't in the case of already legal prostitution. That is why it should not be legalized.

Which case of already legal prostitution are you thinking of when you say that they aren't given the same rights as any other worker? Note; I don't want any nonsense about prostitution being voluntary slavery.


By the way, Regular_Guy, it would help greatly if you could use the quote tags in your replies instead of relying on bolding. The BBCode faqhas a part on quoting. You can use the test forum to test out how well you've learnt the concepts.

[Regular_Guy]

I admit that I didn't visit all those websites, since I'm at school and I'm not sure the administration would approve of me visiting sites about prostitution, but judging from the extracts, I don't see how this invalidates what I've said. Your point was that prostitutes don't want prostitution legalised. The above quote doesn't say that. What it says is that legalisation would be an improvement, but decriminalisation is preferable. This still goes against you, since decriminalisation is basically legalisation with regulation. Exactly what I've been arguing for.

Umm you never once said you were for decriminalization. There is a difference between legalization and decriminalization. If you want I could point them out for you.

And I'm afraid I don't see a sexual act sold at a price as slavery.

Making choices for others always implies having control over them. Thus the freedom to choose is taken away. Sex slave is only one step away from going to just slave.

I don't think of Michael Jackson. In fact, I try to avoid thinking about Michael Jackson as much as possible.

The forum you linked to asked me to register as a member, and I don't feel the need to register for a forum to know about Michael Jackson. The court seems to think he's innocent of doing things with children, though. I'm indifferent to it all.

It was really just a pic of mike pointing to the viewer and saying "not guilty, I told you"
Indifferent? I don't believe it. Everyone who knows anything about him has some opinion on him or his actions.

Oh no, they need stigmatism, otherwise they wouldn't be able to see what they are doing. But if you mean legalising prostitution will not make the stigma vanish into the air, you're right, it won't. It might decrease it, but by no means will it go away. Obviously, the existence of a stigma is dependent on people holding a view that prostitution is a horrible thing. If people, like yourself, esteemed prostitutes a little more highly, then that stigma might disappear.

Hrmm Im confused earlier you said

I don't see how it is helping prostitutes to stigmatize them so. It's only perpetuating disrespect for women who may not have much self esteem anyway

and now you say......

Oh no, they need stigmatism, otherwise they wouldn't be able to see what they are doing

Your first quote implies that you don't stigmatize them, and your second quote implies that stigmatism is necessary. Can you please clarify this?

If people, like yourself, esteemed prostitutes a little more highly, then that stigma might disappear.

No, I won't condone what I see as a violation of morality and human rights

I'd have to think about it. If prostitution was legal, I would have to know if the laws allowed me to select which clients I can service.

You can't be serious can you? If your not a homosexual now, you probably won't be one later.
Seriously though if your not a homosexual and for arguments sake, you were a prostitute and a beautiful man approached you with an "offer", you'd actually consider it?

Of course it's not planned. I don't want to go into too many details, but you do realise that there's more than one way to do it, don't you? And that customers would come to you for different things?

Umm... You do realize that you just don't go into it right? You have to give the money upfront and then work out some type of prearranged agreement.

I'm not sure we should stop people from washing cars naked, lathered and soaked, so long as they don't do it out in public. Nor do I consider that at all "freaky". It might be just the thing on a hot day, and it ensures one's clothes do not become wet. I would do it for my own pleasure

Personally I don't believe you. Wether you agree to it or not, yes a hot woman washing a car naked, lathered and soaked is a very sexual thing.

Which case of already legal prostitution are you thinking of when you say that they aren't given the same rights as any other worker?

The prostitution in nevada. If you want I could show a few instances.

[Corvus]

Thanks for using quote tags. It makes it much easier to separate replies from one another.

I admit that I didn't visit all those websites, since I'm at school and I'm not sure the administration would approve of me visiting sites about prostitution, but judging from the extracts, I don't see how this invalidates what I've said. Your point was that prostitutes don't want prostitution legalised. The above quote doesn't say that. What it says is that legalisation would be an improvement, but decriminalisation is preferable. This still goes against you, since decriminalisation is basically legalisation with regulation. Exactly what I've been arguing for.

Umm you never once said you were for decriminalization. There is a difference between legalization and decriminalization. If you want I could point them out for you.

You don't need to, I checked Wikipedia, but it's a usage I'm not very familiar with. Decriminalisation or criminalisation doesn't even occur in any of my three Oxford English dictionaries. This is why I wrote legalisation and then wrote about imposing regulation, not out of an intention to deceive you, but because that's what seemed most natural to me at the time.

And I'm afraid I don't see a sexual act sold at a price as slavery.

Making choices for others always implies having control over them. Thus the freedom to choose is taken away. Sex slave is only one step away from going to just slave.

You've been over this with ST88. The postitute chooses to have sex for money instead of whatever vague emotional rewards they would get when sex has no price. They are still in possession of their choice, and can choose not to have sex for money.

Oh no, they need stigmatism, otherwise they wouldn't be able to see what they are doing. But if you mean legalising prostitution will not make the stigma vanish into the air, you're right, it won't. It might decrease it, but by no means will it go away. Obviously, the existence of a stigma is dependent on people holding a view that prostitution is a horrible thing. If people, like yourself, esteemed prostitutes a little more highly, then that stigma might disappear.

Hrmm Im confused earlier you said

I don't see how it is helping prostitutes to stigmatize them so. It's only perpetuating disrespect for women who may not have much self esteem anyway

and now you say......

Oh no, they need stigmatism, otherwise they wouldn't be able to see what they are doing

Your first quote implies that you don't stigmatize them, and your second quote implies that stigmatism is necessary. Can you please clarify this?

Certainly. It was a little joke. Y'see, a stigmatism is not the same as a stigma. Look up stigmatism in a dictionary and then look up stigma, and then you can laugh.

I'd have to think about it. If prostitution was legal, I would have to know if the laws allowed me to select which clients I can service.

You can't be serious can you? If your not a homosexual now, you probably won't be one later.
Seriously though if your not a homosexual and for arguments sake, you were a prostitute and a beautiful man approached you with an "offer", you'd actually consider it?

For argument's sake, that doesn't have anything to do with the topic, does it?

Of course it's not planned. I don't want to go into too many details, but you do realise that there's more than one way to do it, don't you? And that customers would come to you for different things?

Umm... You do realize that you just don't go into it right? You have to give the money upfront and then work out some type of prearranged agreement.

The money upfront and then the agreement? Geez, prostitution would reallly be sweet! No, first would come the agreement, and then would come the payment. A person wouldn't pay the same amount for oral sex as for real sex, would they? At least I can only assume that's how it works, because I've never visited a prostitute. Presumably, neither have you.

I'm not sure we should stop people from washing cars naked, lathered and soaked, so long as they don't do it out in public. Nor do I consider that at all "freaky". It might be just the thing on a hot day, and it ensures one's clothes do not become wet. I would do it for my own pleasure

Personally I don't believe you. Wether you agree to it or not, yes a hot woman washing a car naked, lathered and soaked is a very sexual thing.

But not "prostitution". More like stripping with an extra service thrown in.

Which case of already legal prostitution are you thinking of when you say that they aren't given the same rights as any other worker?

The prostitution in nevada. If you want I could show a few instances.

Go ahead. But we don't have to base our prostitution model on the one in Nevada.