Why does it matter whether a fetus is life or not?

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

The debate over abortion always seems to boil down to one fundamental question: is a fetus life or not? This is something that has always perplexed me, as whether or not it is life seems wholly irrelevant. Even if it is determined to be life, we have an undying contempt for the majority of all life on this planet. Bacteria, mold, single-celled organisms, insects, and generally anything that isn't a mammal are frequently killed by people without a second thought. So what difference does it make if a fetus is a life? I kill all types of life on a regular basis so why not that week-old fetus that is little more than a cluster of cells?

In the same way that it being alive does not make it so sacred, it not being alive does not mean it should not be cared for and protected. Even if it isn't life, it still has a great deal of potential to become not just life, but human life, and most will agree that human life is something to be cherished and defended. Furthermore, a late-term abortion could be incredibly painful to the fetus, regardless of whether or not it is alive. It need not be alive to have a nervous system and be able to feel its own death. We shouldn't be bickering over whether a fetus fits the arbitrary criteria with which we define life. We should be asking how developed the fetus is. Can it feel pain? Is it likely to become a life-form whose rights are universally accepted (i.e., is it likely to be born)? In the case of Christians, when does a fetus get a soul?

Ok, now that I'm done with that semi-rant, some questions for debate:

Should whether or not a fetus is a life affect how we treat it?

What other criteria should be evaluated when determining what rights a fetus has?

[otseng]

but what the *beep* kind of double standard is that?

Moderator comment:

Please refrain from the use of vulgarity on this forum. Please also make sure you read through and abide by the rules.

[tickitytak]

but what the *beep* kind of double standard is that?

Moderator comment:

Please refrain from the use of vulgarity on this forum. Please also make sure you read through and abide by the rules.

oops. i didn't realize there were impressionable children reading such heavy philosophical discussions. hopefully i didn't completely destroy their entire perspective of existence by typing a word that would only be interpreted as something negative by someone who is already familiar with its definition and usage.

i'll be sure to refrain from such vulgarity in future posts... unless of course i start a philosophical thread that analyzes the illogical acceptance of our "dirty word culture".

[Jester]

Moderator Comment

oops. i didn't realize there were impressionable children reading such heavy philosophical discussions. hopefully i didn't completely destroy their entire perspective of existence by typing a word that would only be interpreted as something negative by someone who is already familiar with its definition and usage.

i'll be sure to refrain from such vulgarity in future posts... unless of course i start a philosophical thread that analyzes the illogical acceptance of our "dirty word culture".

Be sure that you do. Also be sure that you refrain from responding publicly to moderator comments. That, too, is against the rules.

[Confused]

but what the *beep* kind of double standard is that?

Moderator comment:

Please refrain from the use of vulgarity on this forum. Please also make sure you read through and abide by the rules.

[strike]o[/strike]Oops. [strike]i[/strike] I didn't realize there were impressionable children reading such heavy philosophical discussions. [strike]h[/strike]Hopefully [strike]i[/strike]I didn't completely destroy their entire perspective of existence by typing a word that would only be interpreted as something negative by someone who is already familiar with its definition and usage.

[strike]i[/strike]I'll be sure to refrain from such vulgarity in future posts... unless of course [strike]i[/strike] I start a philosophical thread that analyzes the illogical acceptance of our "dirty word culture".

SUGGESTION:

See corrections in pretty colors.
If one is going to accuse others of being "childish", then one should probably make sure they can use accurate grammar in their accusation or risk seeming childish in their sarcasm as well.

[Confused]

From Page 7 Post 66:

At a certain point fetuses can feel pain. It is my contention this pain is a reflection of a certain self-awareness, in that pain is a means of "understanding" one is in potential or real danger. Also there's the issue of folks who are in a vegetative state, and the rights we grant those folks.

a self-aware consciousness and a consciousness are not the same thing. self-aware consciousness is awareness of the self, of the persona. consciousness is simply awareness of environmental stimulations. a computer program is conscious in this same way.

is pain truly experienced if there is no awareness of the self?

There are some mothers who miss their aborted fetuses for long periods afterwards, up to and including typical grieving behaviors.

Perhaps to you. The many folks who object to abortion would indicate they at least find a "meaning" for the fetus.

Many anti-abortionists consider the fetus has "meaning" simply by nature of its being a human, or potential human.

all meaning is purely subjective. there is no objective meaning. in other words, everything is meaningless until it is given subjective meaning. the concept of significance is a human creation.

Some wonderful philosophical rhetoric here but did you answer any of the issues joeyknuccione brought up or did you opt to divert the conversation away from them by picking out one abstract concept and focusing it on it alone. It has been my experience that when one starts to speak in subject abstract quality, it is usually because one cannot address the underlying issues. I would love to hear your position on the actual topics brought up in this post rather than jumping to the old sideline of "subjectivity".

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 7 Post 70:

Sorry for delayed reply...

a self-aware consciousness and a consciousness are not the same thing. self-aware consciousness is awareness of the self, of the persona. consciousness is simply awareness of environmental stimulations. a computer program is conscious in this same way.

To me it doesn't matter what you call it, an object feeling pain is in pain. This is a response to "tell" the individual there is something that could potentially harm or even kill it. If the fear of harm or death is insufficient to consider one has a "self-aware consciousness", then it is my contention there is none.

I realize such tests as the mirror can indicate a higher degree of self-awareness, but any degree of self-awareness is just that.

is pain truly experienced if there is no awareness of the self?

See above, pain is a "note to self" regarding a stimulus.

all meaning is purely subjective. there is no objective meaning. in other words, everything is meaningless until it is given subjective meaning. the concept of significance is a human creation.

Fair 'nuff. Many humans have the subjective opinion that aborting a fetus is wrong. Others have the subjective opinion aborting a fetus is not wrong. How to square the two?

[tickitytak]

From Page 7 Post 66:

At a certain point fetuses can feel pain. It is my contention this pain is a reflection of a certain self-awareness, in that pain is a means of "understanding" one is in potential or real danger. Also there's the issue of folks who are in a vegetative state, and the rights we grant those folks.

a self-aware consciousness and a consciousness are not the same thing. self-aware consciousness is awareness of the self, of the persona. consciousness is simply awareness of environmental stimulations. a computer program is conscious in this same way.

is pain truly experienced if there is no awareness of the self?

There are some mothers who miss their aborted fetuses for long periods afterwards, up to and including typical grieving behaviors.

Perhaps to you. The many folks who object to abortion would indicate they at least find a "meaning" for the fetus.

Many anti-abortionists consider the fetus has "meaning" simply by nature of its being a human, or potential human.

all meaning is purely subjective. there is no objective meaning. in other words, everything is meaningless until it is given subjective meaning. the concept of significance is a human creation.

Some wonderful philosophical rhetoric here but did you answer any of the issues joeyknuccione brought up or did you opt to divert the conversation away from them by picking out one abstract concept and focusing it on it alone. It has been my experience that when one starts to speak in subject abstract quality, it is usually because one cannot address the underlying issues. I would love to hear your position on the actual topics brought up in this post rather than jumping to the old sideline of "subjectivity".

it appears you've missed the point. the question is whether or not pain is truly experienced without a self-aware consciousness. if it isn't aware of the implications of the pain itself, how is it any more than just another stimulation? does bacteria feel pain when you kill it? is it wrong to bring pain to these life forms as well?

i fail to see the significance of focusing on subjective meaning in regards to this topic.

[tickitytak]

From Page 7 Post 70:

Sorry for delayed reply...
To me it doesn't matter what you call it, an object feeling pain is in pain. This is a response to "tell" the individual there is something that could potentially harm or even kill it. If the fear of harm or death is insufficient to consider one has a "self-aware consciousness", then it is my contention there is none.

I realize such tests as the mirror can indicate a higher degree of self-awareness, but any degree of self-awareness is just that.

i don't feel pain or fear of death is evidence of self-awareness. in fact, i don't believe true self-awareness can exist without language. haha i think i may have worded the question horribly wrong because i was thinking about memory and how if one experiences pain but does not remember it, did they actually experience any pain? and of course, this kind of self-analysis (did i experience it if it didn't happen?) is brought on by self-awareness and language, so this isn't even a question that a life-form, like a fetus, could ever ask itself.

i just wonder... if it isn't capable of comprehending its own existence, is it truly experiencing anything? or is it just responding to a stimulation like a program would? does pain even really matter if it's being killed? if bringing pain to a fetus is wrong, where do we draw the line with other primitive life-forms?

Fair 'nuff. Many humans have the subjective opinion that aborting a fetus is wrong. Others have the subjective opinion aborting a fetus is not wrong. How to square the two?

i agree. there's no possible way to know for sure whether it's right or wrong. it has no definite answer. that's why i think it should be left as a personal decision.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 8 Post 78:

i don't feel pain or fear of death is evidence of self-awareness.

When you hit your thumb with a hammer, who does the cussing, you or someone else? If you don't feel pain I can't much convince you here that the experience of pain is indeed a sense of self-awareness.

in fact, i don't believe true self-awareness can exist without language.

That depends on what you consider language. Even still, my hammer on the thumb example works on deaf mutes, the blind, and various others lacking a given perceptual quality.

haha i think i may have worded the question horribly wrong because i was thinking about memory and how if one experiences pain but does not remember it, did they actually experience any pain? and of course, this kind of self-analysis (did i experience it if it didn't happen?) is brought on by self-awareness and language, so this isn't even a question that a life-form, like a fetus, could ever ask itself.

Somewhere in amongst all that I'm thinking you still don't consider a fetus experiencing pain is self-aware. It matters not so much when the pain occurs, but that the pain occurs. Even though a fetus may not be able to quantify its pain, you can rest assured it will at some point in development react to pain.

i just wonder... if it isn't capable of comprehending its own existence, is it truly experiencing anything? or is it just responding to a stimulation like a program would? does pain even really matter if it's being killed? if bringing pain to a fetus is wrong, where do we draw the line with other primitive life-forms?

Sure. We're just able to so accurately quantify our own experiences in word, song, or pictures.

I would contend pain matters when one is being killed, in that a painless death must surely be preferred.

I consider "primitive" a subjective value in regards to other life, and so would go pretty much on a case by case basis.

i agree. there's no possible way to know for sure whether it's right or wrong. it has no definite answer. that's why i think it should be left as a personal decision.

I agree to a point. I think society should have a say in what we consider an appropriate abortion, in that it is ultimately the taking of a (if only potential) human life. I agree the mother and doctor should have the final say, but that we also have a responsibility to ensure such decisions are in the best interests of society as a whole.

Such a complex, emotional issue shouldn't be left up to the ancients (read religious texts), but with those in the here and now.

I caution against undervaluing the fetus as a human, or overvaluing a fetus the mother may well not be able to properly care for, may be severely disabled, or must risk her life to deliver.

[tickitytak]

i mostly agree with you Joey, but i don't feel a fetus is self-aware. they're conscious, but surely not aware of their own consciousness. as i continue to think about it (and literally hit myself), i suppose any stimulatiuon from pain would be an experience regardless of the level of consciousness. maybe i'm just becoming too depersonalized or something...

when i said "primitive", i was using it in comparison to other biological systems. for example, ours is far more complex and intricate than a fetus.

whether an abortion is painful or not for the fetus is not really an issue, in my opinion.