Deep thinking

[Waterfall]

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

[TheBeardedDude]

[Replying to post 7 by TheBeardedDude]

Hi TheBeardedDude and Divine Insight

Thanks for your answers to these questions.

I would like to sit (for a moment) and just listen to you "debate".

Hope that is alright.

As for Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins I most say, that I have only seen a lot of debates whit them and have never incounted them debate these questions (have they?).

And for the record I did consider to write it like this...I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...but maybe they have?

Maybe I should have done that...

Like I suggested, they have both written about this so it would be a good idea to look through what they have written and not only what comes up in debates (which are often bounded by a rigid set of questions and topics that don't seem to stray into this specific subject matter).

Mortality by Hitchens is good and it's very short.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 7 by TheBeardedDude]

Hi TheBeardedDude and Divine Insight

Thanks for your answers to these questions.

I would like to sit (for a moment) and just listen to you "debate".

Hope that is alright.

I wouldn't say that TheBeardedDue and I are having a "debate". We have both just offered various perspectives on these questions.

I also wouldn't argue that a Secular Naturalistic life is necessarily "worthless". It wasn't a view of Secular Naturalism that caused me to chose not to bring life into this world. In fact, at that time in my life I was a believing Christian! Even with a belief in the Christian God didn't help. After all, my kids could end up in eternal hell that way! A far worse fate than to merely die a natural death.

My real objections to bringing new life into this world had far more to do with how humans are behaving on this planet.

Also, note that whilst I chose not to bring any new humans into this world, I did NOT chose to take myself out of it. So apparently I was willing to face the risks this life has to offer.

In fact, if Buddhism is true I must have come into this life with a really GREAT Karma because my life has been pretty darn good.

If Christianity is true I could still end up in eternal hell! Let's not forget that!

And if Secular Naturalism is true, then I just had a "lucky roll".

I can't personally complain about this life. But that's no guarantee that any children I might have had would have been able to say that same thing. And that is the focal point of YOUR TOPIC in this thread.

I would still have extreme problems with creating new life today. I would rather not. IMHO the world is already too overpopulated as it is anyway. I've already done my part toward that problem by not contributing to that problem.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 7 by TheBeardedDude]

Hi TheBeardedDude and Divine Insight

Thanks for your answers to these questions.

I would like to sit (for a moment) and just listen to you "debate".

Hope that is alright.

As for Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins I most say, that I have only seen a lot of debates whit them and have never incounted them debate these questions (have they?).

And for the record I did consider to write it like this...I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...but maybe they have?

Maybe I should have done that...

Like I suggested, they have both written about this so it would be a good idea to look through what they have written and not only what comes up in debates (which are often bounded by a rigid set of questions and topics that don't seem to stray into this specific subject matter).

Mortality by Hitchens is good and it's very short.

Thanks

I have found this http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/roip ... eath_.html

Maybe I can find the book in danish...I will try my library

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 7 by TheBeardedDude]

Hi TheBeardedDude and Divine Insight

Thanks for your answers to these questions.

I would like to sit (for a moment) and just listen to you "debate".

Hope that is alright.

I wouldn't say that TheBeardedDue and I are having a "debate". We have both just offered various perspectives on these questions.

I also wouldn't argue that a Secular Naturalistic life is necessarily "worthless". It wasn't a view of Secular Naturalism that caused me to chose not to bring life into this world. In fact, at that time in my life I was a believing Christian! Even with a belief in the Christian God didn't help. After all, my kids could end up in eternal hell that way! A far worse fate than to merely die a natural death.

My real objections to bringing new life into this world had far more to do with how humans are behaving on this planet.

Also, note that whilst I chose not to bring any new humans into this world, I did NOT chose to take myself out of it. So apparently I was willing to face the risks this life has to offer.

In fact, if Buddhism is true I must have come into this life with a really GREAT Karma because my life has been pretty darn good.

If Christianity is true I could still end up in eternal hell! Let's not forget that!

And if Secular Naturalism is true, then I just had a "lucky roll".

I can't personally complain about this life. But that's no guarantee that any children I might have had would have been able to say that same thing. And that is the focal point of YOUR TOPIC in this thread.

I would still have extreme problems with creating new life today. I would rather not. IMHO the world is already too overpopulated as it is anyway. I've already done my part toward that problem by not contributing to that problem.

Just so you know...I have to (read all your post a couple of times and) think before I come with any more questions.

There is a lot to process...

Maybe I should tell you this...I have a daughter.

Why did I put a child into this world? Looking back...I don´t think I really knew what I was doing...but I can say this...I believed in God (a supreme and good being)...and that I couldt handle a child...be a good father.

And I didn't do it because God told me to.

The women began talking about having a child and I got hook on that idea...

And now we have a wonderfull daughter (18 years now)

[Divine Insight]

Maybe I should tell you this...I have a daughter.

Why did I put a child into this world? Looking back...I don´t think I really knew what I was doing...but I can say this...I believed in God (a supreme and good being)...and that I couldt handle a child...be a good father.

Most people don't think about what they are truly doing when they create a new human being. Also, like you, many people believe in a God and they believe that God wants them to have children (after all he did command people to be fruitful and multiply). And many people trust that God will at the very least help to take care of their child (at least in terms of spiritual health).

So religious people view having a child as something that God himself 'blesses' and views as being a "good thing".

So I don't blame other people for not taking my views on this.

I understand how they are thinking about it and from there perspective they are doing the RIGHT thing.

And I didn't do it because God told me to.

The women began talking about having a child and I got hook on that idea...

And now we have a wonderfull daughter (18 years now)

For a lot of people having a "Family" is a very important thing. There are a lot of attractive things about having a child, and raising a child. Not to mention that when you get older you have a "family" who will hopefully help to take care of you in old age, or at the very least be concerned that you are well taken care of.

From a personal perspective I think it would have been GREAT to have children and today have a very large family who cares about me. Especially if all my kids turned out to be successful and happy in their lives.

I see around me all different results of how various families actually turned out. I have some cousins who had several children. And just to give a rainbow of results. One family had 3 kids. All three of them did exceptionally well in high school, they all went on to college. Two got a Masters degree and are currently working on the Ph.D.s and one already got her Ph.D. In fact, all of them have married and are starting to have their own children. A very successful family that never experienced and major setback or serious problems. Not even any serious accidents in that family. No one in this family had ever been seriously injured that I can remember.

So it's a "model family" to be sure.

Yet I see other families related to me that have very different stories to tell. Another family had 3 kids also. One married and became a construction worker who never bothered to go to college at all. So he just has a high school diploma with no ambition for to obtain a higher degree. He is "struggling" with his limited ability to make a decent wage, he often does not like his bosses or the people he works with, and his employment is shaky. He's often laid-off or out of work through absolutely no fault of his own. It's just the nature of the career he happens to be working in.

And he is doing the BEST of the three children in this family. Both of the other too children also only obtained high-school diplomas and have no plans for any higher education. And they have both never been able to get any better job than working in fast food restaurants. They are always broke, and suffering from lack of any decent finances. They have become disgruntled about life itself and the society in which they live. The see no way "out" of their predicament and things appear to continually be getting worse for them as their meager wages aren't keeping up with the rise in cost of living expensive. So they both feel "trapped" in a bad situation in life that they do not believe they can do anything about. The idea of going to college to gain a higher degree and a better job does not appear to them to be a realistic option. They are convinced that even if they tried that route they would just end up with a college loan debt and still be unable to find a decent paying job. So these two children (who are now adults well into the 40's now) feel trapped in what seems to be an impossibly situation. Also since their entire job resume amounts to nothing more than working at fast food restaurants, or as shelf-stockers at places like Wall-mart they have see no way out. Also as they get older even those jobs will become impossible for them to get or keep since younger employees are more attractive to employers. So they have a very dismal future to look forward too. One of them never married and most likely never will. The other one is living with a partner but haven't married and have no children. Which is good! Because they can barely get by as it is they aren't in any position to be trying to raise a child too.

On another note, these Kids are generally GOOD PEOPLE too. They never get in trouble with the law, they aren't criminals. They just haven't succeeded financially and are suffering physically, emotionally, and mentally from their poverty. And they feel resentful toward a society that they feel is in large part responsible for their predicament. I personally don't blame them. I feel that our society is a competition that can be extremely heartless and uncaring toward those who fall through the cracks. GOOD PEOPLE who fall through the cracks. We aren't talking about criminals here. We're talking about GOOD PEOPLE who fell through the cracks of a competitive society.

And that second family is actually GOOD NEWS compared with the third family. The third family had a wide range of results with their children. They had several children all daugthers. One turned out to be a Nurse who married a Pastor. They ended up pretty good. He has his own church, and she become the "Head Nurse" of the trauma unit in a really good hospital. So they made out pretty well. I believe they are both retired today. Another daughter married a linesman for a large utility company. They became quite successful to due to his constant promotions with his company. He was lucky enough to obtain a high wage and so they ended up being financially well-off too. However the other two daughters were not so lucky. One got into drugs and married a low-life non-educated loser. They continually suffer in poverty due to their lack of financial abilities, and they are also often in trouble with the law due to their drug habit and the fact that they go out into social places and end up becoming involved in public spats. So they suffer from poverty, drug addiction, and legal problems constantly. The last daughter suffered the worst. She married a construction worker who was mentally imbalanced. He beat her quite often as he was very abusive and everyone knew this but no one could convince her to leaven him. Oh by the way she had FOUR children to her abusive husband! And one reason she wouldn't leave him is because he threatened to take custody of the children if she left. Not to mention threatening to KILL her as well.

Well, one day it happened. She finally had enough and told him she was leaving him. He went into one of his mentally unstable rages and beat her to a pulp with a jack handle. He not only killed her but he continued to beat her dead body for quite some time after she had died. One of the charges against him was "mutilating a corpse". He then hid her body and tried to pretend that he didn't know what happened to her. He claimed that she just never came home from work that day. It didn't take long for the police to discover the truth and he finally broke down and confessed and took them to the where he dumped her mutilated body. He was clearly mentally disturbed as he was going through all sort of personality changes in the process.

So she ended up being brutally beaten to death by her own husband and he will now spend the rest of his life in jail. And their four children have been place in "Foster Homes". So it's a very dismal life for everyone involved.

Imagine being one of those children knowing that your mentally deranged father beat you mother to an unrecognizable pulp?

So yes, life offers a whole rainbow of experiences.

If I thought that having children would have ended with the first story I told in this post I would LOVE to have children. But the problem is that it could have ended up like either of the other two or WORSE!

And it was those scenarios that I didn't want any parts of.

And then to top it all off, God Himself, could end up casting ANY of these children into hell!

For all we know, the first family that has all the apparently successful Ph.D.s could ultimately all be hell-bound. So what appears to be successful to us in this life may not even be successful in terms of an afterlife if the Christian God actually exists!

So, for me, belief in the Christian God is no assurance of anything. According to Jesus only FEW will make it into the kingdom of heaven. That leaves the vast majority to necessarily be hell-bound.

I don't see where that's very encouraging.

I don't mean to paint a dismal picture of life. And I certainly don't want to scare anyone who has an 18 year old daughter! I hope she has the greatest life ever! And if there's an afterlife I most certainly hope she goes to Seventh Heaven.

My only point is that if I had a child and things did not go well for my child, I would personally feel extremely guilty and responsible for it, even though I would only have been responsible for the act of bringing the child into this life in the first place. But unlike you I DID think about it beforehand, and I realized at that point that it was my decision to make.

Seeing that the world was already overpopulated anyway IMHO, the choice to not add to that problem was a fairly easy one. Now, not only am I not responsible for any humans on this planet, but I'm also not responsible or the overpopulation problem.

[Waterfall]

Maybe I should tell you this...I have a daughter.

Why did I put a child into this world? Looking back...I don´t think I really knew what I was doing...but I can say this...I believed in God (a supreme and good being)...and that I couldt handle a child...be a good father.

Most people don't think about what they are truly doing when they create a new human being. Also, like you, many people believe in a God and they believe that God wants them to have children (after all he did command people to be fruitful and multiply). And many people trust that God will at the very least help to take care of their child (at least in terms of spiritual health).

So religious people view having a child as something that God himself 'blesses' and views as being a "good thing".

So I don't blame other people for not taking my views on this.

I understand how they are thinking about it and from there perspective they are doing the RIGHT thing.

And I didn't do it because God told me to.

The women began talking about having a child and I got hook on that idea...

And now we have a wonderfull daughter (18 years now)

For a lot of people having a "Family" is a very important thing. There are a lot of attractive things about having a child, and raising a child. Not to mention that when you get older you have a "family" who will hopefully help to take care of you in old age, or at the very least be concerned that you are well taken care of.

From a personal perspective I think it would have been GREAT to have children and today have a very large family who cares about me. Especially if all my kids turned out to be successful and happy in their lives.

I see around me all different results of how various families actually turned out. I have some cousins who had several children. And just to give a rainbow of results. One family had 3 kids. All three of them did exceptionally well in high school, they all went on to college. Two got a Masters degree and are currently working on the Ph.D.s and one already got her Ph.D. In fact, all of them have married and are starting to have their own children. A very successful family that never experienced and major setback or serious problems. Not even any serious accidents in that family. No one in this family had ever been seriously injured that I can remember.

So it's a "model family" to be sure.

Yet I see other families related to me that have very different stories to tell. Another family had 3 kids also. One married and became a construction worker who never bothered to go to college at all. So he just has a high school diploma with no ambition for to obtain a higher degree. He is "struggling" with his limited ability to make a decent wage, he often does not like his bosses or the people he works with, and his employment is shaky. He's often laid-off or out of work through absolutely no fault of his own. It's just the nature of the career he happens to be working in.

And he is doing the BEST of the three children in this family. Both of the other too children also only obtained high-school diplomas and have no plans for any higher education. And they have both never been able to get any better job than working in fast food restaurants. They are always broke, and suffering from lack of any decent finances. They have become disgruntled about life itself and the society in which they live. The see no way "out" of their predicament and things appear to continually be getting worse for them as their meager wages aren't keeping up with the rise in cost of living expensive. So they both feel "trapped" in a bad situation in life that they do not believe they can do anything about. The idea of going to college to gain a higher degree and a better job does not appear to them to be a realistic option. They are convinced that even if they tried that route they would just end up with a college loan debt and still be unable to find a decent paying job. So these two children (who are now adults well into the 40's now) feel trapped in what seems to be an impossibly situation. Also since their entire job resume amounts to nothing more than working at fast food restaurants, or as shelf-stockers at places like Wall-mart they have see no way out. Also as they get older even those jobs will become impossible for them to get or keep since younger employees are more attractive to employers. So they have a very dismal future to look forward too. One of them never married and most likely never will. The other one is living with a partner but haven't married and have no children. Which is good! Because they can barely get by as it is they aren't in any position to be trying to raise a child too.

On another note, these Kids are generally GOOD PEOPLE too. They never get in trouble with the law, they aren't criminals. They just haven't succeeded financially and are suffering physically, emotionally, and mentally from their poverty. And they feel resentful toward a society that they feel is in large part responsible for their predicament. I personally don't blame them. I feel that our society is a competition that can be extremely heartless and uncaring toward those who fall through the cracks. GOOD PEOPLE who fall through the cracks. We aren't talking about criminals here. We're talking about GOOD PEOPLE who fell through the cracks of a competitive society.

And that second family is actually GOOD NEWS compared with the third family. The third family had a wide range of results with their children. They had several children all daugthers. One turned out to be a Nurse who married a Pastor. They ended up pretty good. He has his own church, and she become the "Head Nurse" of the trauma unit in a really good hospital. So they made out pretty well. I believe they are both retired today. Another daughter married a linesman for a large utility company. They became quite successful to due to his constant promotions with his company. He was lucky enough to obtain a high wage and so they ended up being financially well-off too. However the other two daughters were not so lucky. One got into drugs and married a low-life non-educated loser. They continually suffer in poverty due to their lack of financial abilities, and they are also often in trouble with the law due to their drug habit and the fact that they go out into social places and end up becoming involved in public spats. So they suffer from poverty, drug addiction, and legal problems constantly. The last daughter suffered the worst. She married a construction worker who was mentally imbalanced. He beat her quite often as he was very abusive and everyone knew this but no one could convince her to leaven him. Oh by the way she had FOUR children to her abusive husband! And one reason she wouldn't leave him is because he threatened to take custody of the children if she left. Not to mention threatening to KILL her as well.

Well, one day it happened. She finally had enough and told him she was leaving him. He went into one of his mentally unstable rages and beat her to a pulp with a jack handle. He not only killed her but he continued to beat her dead body for quite some time after she had died. One of the charges against him was "mutilating a corpse". He then hid her body and tried to pretend that he didn't know what happened to her. He claimed that she just never came home from work that day. It didn't take long for the police to discover the truth and he finally broke down and confessed and took them to the where he dumped her mutilated body. He was clearly mentally disturbed as he was going through all sort of personality changes in the process.

So she ended up being brutally beaten to death by her own husband and he will now spend the rest of his life in jail. And their four children have been place in "Foster Homes". So it's a very dismal life for everyone involved.

Imagine being one of those children knowing that your mentally deranged father beat you mother to an unrecognizable pulp?

So yes, life offers a whole rainbow of experiences.

If I thought that having children would have ended with the first story I told in this post I would LOVE to have children. But the problem is that it could have ended up like either of the other two or WORSE!

And it was those scenarios that I didn't want any parts of.

And then to top it all off, God Himself, could end up casting ANY of these children into hell!

For all we know, the first family that has all the apparently successful Ph.D.s could ultimately all be hell-bound. So what appears to be successful to us in this life may not even be successful in terms of an afterlife if the Christian God actually exists!

So, for me, belief in the Christian God is no assurance of anything. According to Jesus only FEW will make it into the kingdom of heaven. That leaves the vast majority to necessarily be hell-bound.

I don't see where that's very encouraging.

I don't mean to paint a dismal picture of life. And I certainly don't want to scare anyone who has an 18 year old daughter! I hope she has the greatest life ever! And if there's an afterlife I most certainly hope she goes to Seventh Heaven.

My only point is that if I had a child and things did not go well for my child, I would personally feel extremely guilty and responsible for it, even though I would only have been responsible for the act of bringing the child into this life in the first place. But unlike you I DID think about it beforehand, and I realized at that point that it was my decision to make.

Seeing that the world was already overpopulated anyway IMHO, the choice to not add to that problem was a fairly easy one. Now, not only am I not responsible for any humans on this planet, but I'm also not responsible or the overpopulation problem.

I love your way of thinking (you are a very wise...and kind...and loving human being).

And thanks for your stories about life on earth (I´m not so good to tell stories my self...I´m just good of asking questions I think)

Maybe we all should stop putting children into this world. I just can´t see that happening in the near future. Because "everybody" wants to have children. For me that is no problem if there is a heaven. Because then everybody is lucky to be alive.

Even the unlucky ones in this world. And there are many of those. Therefor we should ask ourself.

Why should we (all of us children) say yes to be born into this world? What do we get out of it? 5 seconds on earth? Is it gonna be 5 good seconds? How many of us are going to get a bad life? Lets look at the world...can we live with that? Are there anybody who volunteers to a bad life? Should we draw lots? Do our parents have everything under control? How many women are there? How many men are there? Is there a partner for everybody? Are we supposed to adapt to a bad situation? What is the meaning of life? To find a boy/girl an be happy? Are the children on a impossible mission? How can the children be happy when there brothers and sisters are being kill?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

If "your" child takes his/her own life then you will be sorry...so what are your child supposed to do? Walk down the road until he/she meets a sick person? And then you will be really sorry and angry and demand justice...and the sick ones will laugh and say...thanks for that child...and you will put a gun to your head and blow your brains out.

This is not an attack on anybody...but the plain truth...as I see it...we can´t do anything without God...and God knows that...and is just waiting for us to wake up...do we need proof of life after death? Why? Why do God have to proof anything? Will we not put children into the world before we get proof of life after death? I don´t think God have a problem with us leaving this world...but we do...because we want to see peace on earth...and this can God help us with...and have tried to help us with by sending souls like Buddha and Jesus and Muhammed down to earth...but sometimes things go wrong...thats life on earth...its a battleground for good and evil.

Maybe I am far out in my thinking?

By the way...aint we talking about more than mortality?

[Divine Insight]

Maybe we all should stop putting children into this world.

Well, truth be known we aren't doing it wisely. We are overpopulating the planet. Most of our "pollution" problems wouldn't be nearly the problems they are if there were far fewer humans on earth causing "pollution". In fact, the Earth's biosphere can actually deal with small amounts of pollution and neutralize them to where they are no longer problematic. Our "pollution problems" are in a large part due to our overpopulating the planet.

I just can´t see that happening in the near future. Because "everybody" wants to have children.

Exactly. Most people do want to have children. Even I would have loved to have raised children and today have a nice big family. I just didn't want to bring new people into a world that is clearly going "downhill". And I saw this way back in the 1950's when I was still a kid.

For me that is no problem if there is a heaven. Because then everybody is lucky to be alive.

This would only be true if everybody goes to heaven. In both Christianity and Islam most people actually go the way of everlasting punishment for as little as merely not even believing the right things.

This worldview also amount to nothing more than the following:

Life wouldn't be fair if people don't go to heaven after death, therefore there must be a God because I refuse to believe that life isn't "fair".

So while this may be very attractive it really doesn't amount to anything more than saying, "I hope life turns out to be fair".

Also as far as religion go Buddhism is the "fairest" of them all. In Buddhism everyone does return to God in the end as there is nowhere else to go. And also during life no one experiences anything more then the karma that they themselves have created. And keep in mind that Buddhism allows for reincarnation and that karma can pass through the incarnations. So everything is as "fair" as it can possibly be in Buddhism.

This is not the case in Christianity or Islam. Neither of these religions are "fair" at all. People who are "nice" can actually end up in eternal hell for merely having believed the wrong things. In the meantime people who have done horrific atrocities can actually be granted amnesty through God's Grace and be given eternal life in heaven. So fairness goes out the window the moment amnesty and grace are brought into the picture.

So if you're really concerned with fairness Buddhism would be the religion to embrace.

But again, just because you would like for life to be "fair" doesn't require that this must be so. So this is hardly a compelling argument for the existence of a God.

This is, however, a good argument for placing FAITH in a theology in the HOPE that it might be true. And this is indeed what the vast majority of religious people do. They hope that life is ultimately "Fair".

By the way, I can certainly understand your desire to believe that your daughter (as well as yourself and your wife) will be reunited after death and "live" happily ever after in paradise. That's an extremely inviting dream to be sure.

I never married and never had children, but I loved my mother dearly. She was a GREAT mom when I was growing up. She was my "Best Friend" during the middle years of my life. And in a very real way she became like my daughter in her old age when she was extremely feeble in old age. I refused to put her in a home and I retired early to stay with her myself in my own home. I became her full-time caretaker for well over 6 years until she finally passed on at 90.

I confess that it's difficult to imagine her just "dying" and no longer existing. And if I imagine an afterlife I can only imagine her in a "Heaven". She most certainly would deserve that. I never met anyone in my entire life who would deserve heaven more than my own mother, and I'm not just saying that because she was my mother. She truly was the most loving, forgiving, and compassion person I have ever known.

So yes, the though of her having gone to a wonderful life in some paradise is a very beautiful thought. I wouldn't even care if I was cast into the pits of hell as long as my mother was in heaven. That's all that matters to me. I would imagine you'd probably feel much the same way around your daughter. What father wouldn't gladly go to hell if in doing he would be sending his daughter to heaven?

In that respect I think that probably the vast majority of Fathers on earth are Christ-like in the sense that they would gladly give their lives to save the ones they love. In fact, they would most likely accept actual eternal damnation, something that "Christ" clearly did not suffer.

In this sense, most mortal fathers are probably willing to give MORE than the Christian Christ ever thought of giving. I know a lot of fathers who would go straight to eternal hell on a dime if they thought that choice could send their daughters to guaranteed heaven. I know I would do it for my mom. And I didn't even create her. She created me! And I would still go to hell to save her eternal fate.

So yeah, I think we all have a basic desire to make life "fair" and we would probably be willing to have the most "unfair" fate happen to us just to make a "fair" result possible or others.

[Waterfall]

Maybe we all should stop putting children into this world.

Well, truth be known we aren't doing it wisely. We are overpopulating the planet. Most of our "pollution" problems wouldn't be nearly the problems they are if there were far fewer humans on earth causing "pollution". In fact, the Earth's biosphere can actually deal with small amounts of pollution and neutralize them to where they are no longer problematic. Our "pollution problems" are in a large part due to our overpopulating the planet.

I just can´t see that happening in the near future. Because "everybody" wants to have children.

Exactly. Most people do want to have children. Even I would have loved to have raised children and today have a nice big family. I just didn't want to bring new people into a world that is clearly going "downhill". And I saw this way back in the 1950's when I was still a kid.

For me that is no problem if there is a heaven. Because then everybody is lucky to be alive.

This would only be true if everybody goes to heaven. In both Christianity and Islam most people actually go the way of everlasting punishment for as little as merely not even believing the right things.

This worldview also amount to nothing more than the following:

Life wouldn't be fair if people don't go to heaven after death, therefore there must be a God because I refuse to believe that life isn't "fair".

So while this may be very attractive it really doesn't amount to anything more than saying, "I hope life turns out to be fair".

Also as far as religion go Buddhism is the "fairest" of them all. In Buddhism everyone does return to God in the end as there is nowhere else to go. And also during life no one experiences anything more then the karma that they themselves have created. And keep in mind that Buddhism allows for reincarnation and that karma can pass through the incarnations. So everything is as "fair" as it can possibly be in Buddhism.

This is not the case in Christianity or Islam. Neither of these religions are "fair" at all. People who are "nice" can actually end up in eternal hell for merely having believed the wrong things. In the meantime people who have done horrific atrocities can actually be granted amnesty through God's Grace and be given eternal life in heaven. So fairness goes out the window the moment amnesty and grace are brought into the picture.

So if you're really concerned with fairness Buddhism would be the religion to embrace.

But again, just because you would like for life to be "fair" doesn't require that this must be so. So this is hardly a compelling argument for the existence of a God.

This is, however, a good argument for placing FAITH in a theology in the HOPE that it might be true. And this is indeed what the vast majority of religious people do. They hope that life is ultimately "Fair".

By the way, I can certainly understand your desire to believe that your daughter (as well as yourself and your wife) will be reunited after death and "live" happily ever after in paradise. That's an extremely inviting dream to be sure.

I never married and never had children, but I loved my mother dearly. She was a GREAT mom when I was growing up. She was my "Best Friend" during the middle years of my life. And in a very real way she became like my daughter in her old age when she was extremely feeble in old age. I refused to put her in a home and I retired early to stay with her myself in my own home. I became her full-time caretaker for well over 6 years until she finally passed on at 90.

I confess that it's difficult to imagine her just "dying" and no longer existing. And if I imagine an afterlife I can only imagine her in a "Heaven". She most certainly would deserve that. I never met anyone in my entire life who would deserve heaven more than my own mother, and I'm not just saying that because she was my mother. She truly was the most loving, forgiving, and compassion person I have ever known.

So yes, the though of her having gone to a wonderful life in some paradise is a very beautiful thought. I wouldn't even care if I was cast into the pits of hell as long as my mother was in heaven. That's all that matters to me. I would imagine you'd probably feel much the same way around your daughter. What father wouldn't gladly go to hell if in doing he would be sending his daughter to heaven?

In that respect I think that probably the vast majority of Fathers on earth are Christ-like in the sense that they would gladly give their lives to save the ones they love. In fact, they would most likely accept actual eternal damnation, something that "Christ" clearly did not suffer.

In this sense, most mortal fathers are probably willing to give MORE than the Christian Christ ever thought of giving. I know a lot of fathers who would go straight to eternal hell on a dime if they thought that choice could send their daughters to guaranteed heaven. I know I would do it for my mom. And I didn't even create her. She created me! And I would still go to hell to save her eternal fate.

So yeah, I think we all have a basic desire to make life "fair" and we would probably be willing to have the most "unfair" fate happen to us just to make a "fair" result possible or others.

Just some thinking...because if we all are creators...then we can create a better world than God (if he/she hasent already created the best world or afterlife)...so we are of the hook whit bad gods...aint we? Maybe your mom already has defeated God? She sounds like a great mom, so I hope she has...if there is a bad god waiting for us...I don´t think there is...but if there is she will surely have defeated him/her.

Maybe you are to hard on Christianty and Islam? There are good thoughts in those religions to...maybe they just got a couple of things roung? And those we don´t have to follow or believe in, so who can say this is Christianty and this is Islam?

[Divine Insight]

Maybe you are to hard on Christianty and Islam?

Guilty as charged.

But if you have a hope for heaven don't forget to notice that Jesus said that only FEW will make it into eternal life.

I'm just saying.

Unless you are confident that you and your family will be among the FEW who make, and you really don't care much about the fact that most humans won't make it, I can't see where Christianity would have much to offer in the way of "hope".

So am I being hard on this religion? Or has the superstar of this religion already been hard on it himself?

Just asking.

[Waterfall]

Maybe you are to hard on Christianty and Islam?

Guilty as charged.

But if you have a hope for heaven don't forget to notice that Jesus said that only FEW will make it into eternal life.

I'm just saying.

Unless you are confident that you and your family will be among the FEW who make, and you really don't care much about the fact that most humans won't make it, I can't see where Christianity would have much to offer in the way of "hope".

So am I being hard on this religion? Or has the superstar of this religion already been hard on it himself?

Just asking.

I fully understand you on this ( a FEW will make it into eternal life)...there are not much hope in that for anybody.

So that most be one of those thing we don´t have to believe in...because a good person wouldn´t be saying that (IMHO)...so either Jesus wasn't a good person or he didn´t say it or he was wrong on this/mistaken.

I think we (everybody) already has eternal life and are living it now.

Sometimes here on earth...sometimes in heaven (or the afterlife...maybe there are many worlds...before we get to the last world...heaven...and then never return or leave that world...unles we want to).

I don´t know if heaven is there ( I haven´t seen it with my earthly eyes)...but its the only thing that makes sense to me.

The only one who really can destroy us is God and I don´t think God will do that unles we want to be destroyed (free will).