Are there any new arguments for God?

[daedalus 2.0]

It seems all the arguments for God have been offered and answered. There are also arguments against God, which Theists have tried to answer. The atheists are clearly winning in the area of logic, reason and rationality.

I haven't seen a new argument for God in years and would love for someone to offer one.

[Goat]

I have a question.

Here you claim to have special insight, since you are have been personally instructed by God. And, on a forum with dozens upon dozens of people, many who are very educated and bright, you can not get one person to see or understand your perspective. Why do you think that is?

Hi Goat,

That is not true, at the moment I have been conversing with athiests.
There are Christians who do agree with me who are here also.
The teachings below show why you feel as you do and that Paul is proven right just by your post above. You speak of being educated and bright. But the things of God and the Spirit are not found in the wisdom of men. So you cannot judge me for you do not and cannot receive the things which I have.
This again proving what Paul teaches as correct.

Love Faith.xx

1 Corinthians 2:4-16. KJV.

4.And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5.That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6.Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7.But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8.Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9.But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10.But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11.For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12.Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13.Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14.But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15.But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16.For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Are you conversing with them, or are you talking at them?

A conversation goes two ways. It implies an exchange of ideas, and the attempt for comprehension. There are certain issues you do not seem to want to understand.

From the previous conversations, can you tell me what a logical fallacy is? What is your understanding of the 'Argument by popularity'?

[daedalus 2.0]

There are a few thousand followers of Odin/Asatru.

http://www.runestone.org/
http://asatru.org/

And it is a valid religion - as valid as any other, upheld in court.


Certainly, faith, you shouldn't use number of people to test if something is true or not - by that "logic" you would have ruled out Xinanity in the beginning.

When did you ever rule Christianity out fully.

You misunderstand the point. Most people in the world aren't Christian, so if you intend to keep flogging the dead horse of 'lots of people=correct', you need to renounce your faith, because only 33% of the world's population claims to be Christian, while 67% does not.

If you look again at 33% and view that as to the other 67% being split between all other denominations and beliefs which include atheism. You see Christianity is the largest faith in the whole world.

*Deep breath* Faith, the point is this:

There are more people who are not Christians than there are people who are Christians in the world. What beliefs that majority of 67% hold is not relevant. The number of people who are NOT Christian outweighs the number who ARE. Therefore, if you want to stick to your argument that 'lots of people=correct', you are forcing yourself to admit that BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE NON-CHRISTIANS THAN THERE ARE CHRISTIANS, Christianity is wrong; they are right not to believe it. Right?

So when viewing it as it should be viewed

I can do pictures if you like.

atheists do not outway religious believers in the world.

I know that, faith. The 'lots of people=correct' argument is YOUR ARGUMENT. Not mine. I hear the gentle sigh of goalposts shifting. Before, your argument was that because lots of people are Christians, it must be right. Now it seems to be 'most people believe in something so they must be right'. How can this possibly be correct? Do you accept that Muslims, Hindus and Shintoists are right?

So perhaps the atheists including yourself should give up the unbelief and follow the most popular faith Christianity, which would be the correct way to go by your reasoning.

I'm trying really really hard here to remain civil. I seriously am. IT IS YOUR ARGUMENT. YOUR REASONING. NOT MINE. What is more popular is to not be a Christian. So if you follow YOUR OWN REASONING, you should not be a Christian.

The dead horse is real the atheism because it had far less members than Christianity and other faiths combined.

*hand and forehead connect at speed* And atheism plus all other faiths combined outweighs Christianity. Do all other beliefs suddenly become your allies when you have a point to make? That's totally weird, because from what I've seen, you can't even agree with all Christians, let alone members of entirely different faiths.

Even Christianity stands to have more members alone than atheism.

Yes, faith. But I'm trying to make you see how your 'lots of people=correct' argument is totally fallacious. I hate to say it, but you do in fact seem incapable of getting it.

Why did you think your argument carried any weight in the debate?

Did you just get through apologising to everyone for your debating style coming over as offensive, or did I dream it? If I see such a glaring logical fallacy I'll either point it out or join with those who point it out. And believe me when I say that in order for me to notice it, it must be pretty flipping bad.

This makes atheism look as if it is just a game like which football team should we support.

Love Faith.xx

Do you mean 'religion'?

I don't think I have seen a better post that elucidates the inability for theists - especially religionists - to see theit fallacy and the frustration - and patience - of atheists/agnostics to try to enlighten them.

They will dwell forever in darkness, sadly.

Fatih, do you even see a glimmer of what he is trying to say? That you tried to say that Xianity is the most popular religion, therefore it makes it somehow more true - and yet, Xinaity is the minority belief which would mean you are wrong - according to YOUR point.

Faith, you really must concede this point. Admit you were wrong and move on. Xianity has 2000 years of apologetics, this is not one of their stronger arguments. There have been much better ones.

[olavisjo]

Umm.... it must really bother you, then, that there are actually 173,882 days between those dates. Damn, I just disproved Xinanity!
http://www.msevans.com/calendar/daysbet ... applet.php


Of course, you could just change the date to whatever you need it to be - since that's all prophesy is: revisionist history.


Now, if it was a true prophesy, you have some work to do! Who was Daniel talking about if not Jesus?!


(BTW, Paul Smith says: 173,883) and Xians take 3 away for luck or something....

http://www.theism.net/article/4

Either way, this shows that 173,880 is WRONG.

You want it so bad that you can taste it, the dynamic duo, Judas and Daedalus, the man who betrayed Christ and the man who disproved Xianity.
Here I am trying to show you that a man can live forever and you sincerely desire it to not be so, it is like you have a death wish. Why?
I read the Paul Smith thing in the link, and it said "*Jewish dates were often observationally set, rather than following a strict algorithm. Therefore, no calculations in this article are based on the Jewish dates due to probable inaccuracies with them."
It is exactly these Jewish dates that this prophesy is based on and an error of 2 or 3 days is not bad. Any scientific experiment that falls within 0.0017% of theoretical expectation would be considered an affirmation of the theoretical assumptions.

When wording a prophesy a certain amount of obfuscation is necessary, for example look at this prophesy from the mid 1980's...

Sitting on 144 the day after you celebrate the messiah like it was 1999, the windows of opportunity will close three quarters short of 120, having begun three quarters short of 30 and lasting 5 and 17 and 41 days.

If you had read that 20 years ago would you have understood it? Do you understand it now? But it could have made you the richest man in the world, and it did make Bill Gates the richest man in the world.
But supposing that instead the prophesy would have said...

Shares of Microsoft will split so that 1 share will become 144, the stock price will hit a peak on the first trading day after Christmas 1999 at $119.25 after hiting a high of $29.25 in its IPO debute of 5 X 17 X 41 = 3485 trading days prior.

Can you see how the first prophesy had a chance to be fulfilled and the second would have been self defeating. Investors who used the prophesy to make this investment would have said to themselves that "I am going to hit the exit one week early to beat the rush" and at some point before the prophesy was fulfilled there would have been a panic and the stock would have plummeted, which is what it did over an orderly 3 1/2 year period.

The purpose of a prophesy is not to predict the future, but to give a hint that the one who made the prophesy had inside information, and since God is the only one who has that information, it shows weather or not a prophet is from God, as Daniel obviously was.

[daedalus 2.0]

To give a hint that someone had inside information? Is that it? So God came to Earth and couldn't be accurate? Why not?

Is he trying to be sly on purpose? After all, Jesus (allegedly) gave some prophesies. And, I might add, that your religion is based on a larger prophecy: that God will reward or punish you in the afterlife, and come in the future to judge the dead.

Is this an accurate prophecy - or is it, as you said, just a vaguery given by someone who may or may not be accurate?

Which is it? And how do I trust that you speak properly, or interpret the prophecy correctly?

[faith]

[image]http://64.233.169.104/search ?sourceid=navclient &hl=en-GB &ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_en-GBGB265GB279 &q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adherents.com%2FReligions_By_Adherents.html[/image]

[Goat]

Umm.... it must really bother you, then, that there are actually 173,882 days between those dates. Damn, I just disproved Xinanity!
http://www.msevans.com/calendar/daysbet ... applet.php


Of course, you could just change the date to whatever you need it to be - since that's all prophesy is: revisionist history.


Now, if it was a true prophesy, you have some work to do! Who was Daniel talking about if not Jesus?!


(BTW, Paul Smith says: 173,883) and Xians take 3 away for luck or something....

http://www.theism.net/article/4

Either way, this shows that 173,880 is WRONG.

You want it so bad that you can taste it, the dynamic duo, Judas and Daedalus, the man who betrayed Christ and the man who disproved Xianity.

Nope, just disproved your claim about Daniel 9 being a prophecy for Jesus. That is a different , narrower manner.

Here I am trying to show you that a man can live forever and you sincerely desire it to not be so, it is like you have a death wish. Why?
I read the Paul Smith thing in the link, and it said "*Jewish dates were often observationally set, rather than following a strict algorithm. Therefore, no calculations in this article are based on the Jewish dates due to probable inaccuracies with them."
It is exactly these Jewish dates that this prophesy is based on and an error of 2 or 3 days is not bad. Any scientific experiment that falls within 0.0017% of theoretical expectation would be considered an affirmation of the theoretical assumptions.

Except, you are not even taking into account that you don't know the YEAR of
Jesus' execution.. if he existed at all, and using that event as a beginning date is arbitrary too (there are other 'solutions'). You just don't get it do you? Not only that, but there are other solutions to that 'prophecy' that do not involved your
dates.

When wording a prophesy a certain amount of obfuscation is necessary, for example look at this prophesy from the mid 1980's...

Sitting on 144 the day after you celebrate the messiah like it was 1999, the windows of opportunity will close three quarters short of 120, having begun three quarters short of 30 and lasting 5 and 17 and 41 days.

If you had read that 20 years ago would you have understood it? Do you understand it now? But it could have made you the richest man in the world, and it did make Bill Gates the richest man in the world.
But supposing that instead the prophesy would have said...

Shares of Microsoft will split so that 1 share will become 144, the stock price will hit a peak on the first trading day after Christmas 1999 at $119.25 after hiting a high of $29.25 in its IPO debute of 5 X 17 X 41 = 3485 trading days prior.

Can you see how the first prophesy had a chance to be fulfilled and the second would have been self defeating. Investors who used the prophesy to make this investment would have said to themselves that "I am going to hit the exit one week early to beat the rush" and at some point before the prophesy was fulfilled there would have been a panic and the stock would have plummeted, which is what it did over an orderly 3 1/2 year period.

The purpose of a prophesy is not to predict the future, but to give a hint that the one who made the prophesy had inside information, and since God is the only one who has that information, it shows weather or not a prophet is from God, as Daniel obviously was.

You see, the prophecy was actually after the fact writing of stuff in 167 to 164 bce..
and had nothing to do with Jesus.

From http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/daniel.html

W. Sibley Towner writes: "Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C. This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author. The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C. The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)

[faith]

There are a few thousand followers of Odin/Asatru.

http://www.runestone.org/
http://asatru.org/

And it is a valid religion - as valid as any other, upheld in court.


Certainly, faith, you shouldn't use number of people to test if something is true or not - by that "logic" you would have ruled out Xinanity in the beginning.

When did you ever rule Christianity out fully.

You misunderstand the point. Most people in the world aren't Christian, so if you intend to keep flogging the dead horse of 'lots of people=correct', you need to renounce your faith, because only 33% of the world's population claims to be Christian, while 67% does not.

If you look again at 33% and view that as to the other 67% being split between all other denominations and beliefs which include atheism. You see Christianity is the largest faith in the whole world.

As you can see I was making a totally different and independant point.
Nothing to do with what you were spouting about them being lumped together.
I made the point of saying look again at the 33% and view that as to the other 67% being SPLIT between all other denominations and beliefs.
Clearly you can understand something being said independant of your own point of view. But then everyone jumps on the band wagon. It is a fact that if talking about faith and atheism, other religions are still belief in a God. And Christianity out numbers any other belief. You cannot treat one faith individually and seperate if from all other faiths then make the others all atheist faiths.
So clearly what I said is correct and stands. Sorry you wasted your time posting and effort thinking you were being clever.

So when viewing it as it should be viewed atheists do not outway religious believers in the world. So perhaps the atheists including yourself should give up the unbelief and follow the most popular faith Christianity, which would be the correct way to go by your reasoning.

Here proves what I was referring to is correct.

The dead horse is real the atheism because it had far less members than Christianity and other faiths combined. Even Christianity stands to have more members alone than atheism. Why did you think your argument carried any weight in the debate? This makes atheism look as if it is just a game like which football team should we support.

Love Faith.xx

All you have done is prove you just want to be right but don't have the ability or the right answers to be so. If you had not been in such a hurry to brag and mock you might have seen this for yourself when reading what I wrote correctly.

Love Faith.xx

[faith]

There are a few thousand followers of Odin/Asatru.

http://www.runestone.org/
http://asatru.org/

And it is a valid religion - as valid as any other, upheld in court.


Certainly, faith, you shouldn't use number of people to test if something is true or not - by that "logic" you would have ruled out Xinanity in the beginning.

When did you ever rule Christianity out fully.

You misunderstand the point. Most people in the world aren't Christian, so if you intend to keep flogging the dead horse of 'lots of people=correct', you need to renounce your faith, because only 33% of the world's population claims to be Christian, while 67% does not.

If you look again at 33% and view that as to the other 67% being split between all other denominations and beliefs which include atheism. You see Christianity is the largest faith in the whole world. So when viewing it as it should be viewed atheists do not outway religious believers in the world. So perhaps the atheists including yourself should give up the unbelief and follow the most popular faith Christianity, which would be the correct way to go by your reasoning.

The dead horse is real the atheism because it had far less members than Christianity and other faiths combined. Even Christianity stands to have more members alone than atheism. Why did you think your argument carried any weight in the debate? This makes atheism look as if it is just a game like which football team should we support.

Love Faith.xx

I nearly fell of my chair laughing when I read this post. Gobsmacked I was.

You really just don't get it do you?

As you can see, you are the one having difficulty reading other peoples posts, not me.

[Fallibleone]

I think perhaps our exchange on this subject is over, faith. I'm sure others will be more than happy to engage you.

And please could you edit your post containing the image link? It's making the page all wrong.

[faith]

I don't think I have seen a better post that elucidates the inability for theists - especially religionists - to see theit fallacy and the frustration - and patience - of atheists/agnostics to try to enlighten them.

They will dwell forever in darkness, sadly.

Fatih, do you even see a glimmer of what he is trying to say? That you tried to say that Xianity is the most popular religion, therefore it makes it somehow more true - and yet, Xinaity is the minority belief which would mean you are wrong - according to YOUR point.

Faith, you really must concede this point. Admit you were wrong and move on. Xianity has 2000 years of apologetics, this is not one of their stronger arguments. There have been much better ones.

I have shown that none read my post correctly and I was making an independant point when replying as the post itself shows. I am disappointed in you DD,
I have said it has the most members according to their figures. But I also know those figures to be correct would have to ask every person in the whole world what faith they were. It was not done that way just a number from the population.
I am disappointed because you know that these figures are from 3 years ago. You also know that the faith of every person or disbelief is not correctly displayed.

There are many who call themselves by a religion but do not follow it. All lapsed but still say they are christian. We both know there is no way of knowing the correct numbers. I just assumed I was speaking with reasonable people, not those who just want to score points through worthless childish games not even reading posts correctly. I apologised this morning because I had not wanted to appear as if mocking. But do you know something, you have all taught me there is no respect for anyone who does not do as you want them to do, or believe what you believe.

I do believe in God and I am glad I do. Because I would never treat anyone the way you do on here as atheists. If atheism is about lack of self-respect and trying to score points with useless arguments then perhaps you deserve to be an atheist because you lack respect for your fellow human beings.

My post shows clearly my point. Perhaps you will now read your own in light of it, and see how shallow and wrong your replies were.

Love Faith.