Is free will an illusion?

[olavisjo]

I find that under a naturalistic philosophy it is impossible for free will to exist, for the simple reason that when we make decisions about things we are performing electrical and chemical reactions in our brains, very much like our computers process data under the control of natural laws, so the outcome of any such process must be strictly determined by past events.
A theist can say that free will is a daily miracle given to us by God, but how can an atheist explain the concept?

[olavisjo]

Not if it's uncaused. Although a public company's doubling in value over the course of time may be unpredictable, it is not uncaused.

Olavisjo's rule-> There are no random events, if you look long and hard enough for a cause, you will find one. Randomdidit is a false god.

Then I suggest you find a cause for the natural, random decay of atoms. Physicists certainly don't see any anywhere on the horizon.

To say that an event is uncaused is just an argument from ignorance, "we don't know what causes something to happen, therefore there is no cause". An uncaused event is also a logical contradiction, "if there is no cause, why would the event ever happen in the first place?"
As for the decay of atoms, I imagine that when you get a lot of positively charged particles confined to a small space the force of repulsion is very strong and those particles are constantly trying to escape but the strong nuclear force keeps pulling them back. So the protons will be in a constant back and forth motion and when a large number of protons just happen to be moving away from the center at the same time, the nuclear force is unable to pull them all back at once and the atom splits. This is most likely not the reason, but if it were it would be consistent with the atoms appearing to split in an uncaused manner and the half life we see in nuclear decay. But the point is that just because we don't know why is no reason to say that it is uncaused.

[olavisjo]

I am not making this stuff up, this is doctrine right out of the atheist bible. So my question to you is "Are you going to trust your own intuition or the reasoning of people who, by their own admission, are incapable of reasoning freely"?

first of all, there is no atheist bible. atheism is strictly "the lack of belief in the existence of deities". the illusion you just described is the explanation for how free will works. we are just responding to the stimulation from our environment, but our own consciousness acts as another stimulation because we are self-aware. this is how choice is possible. even in Determinism, everyone is still capable of reasoning freely.

This is a logical contradiction, if the universe is determined by the laws of nature, then even your thoughts are determined, so your reasoning is also determined. You are not free to be right or wrong, you are what the universe determines you to be.

You believe that atoms can spontaneously become self aware, yet there is no evidence that such a thing can occur. So why the double standard of evidence?

it's not exactly a double standard. if God does not exist, the fact that we are self-aware is evidence that it came about naturally. if God does exist, it is still possible that self-awareness came about naturally just as it is possible that it was divine intervention.

development of self-awareness through natural causes is a possibility with or without God, while divine intervention relies on the existence of God. if anything, evidence for "awareness through nature" is supported by the lack of evidence of a higher being.

The structure of your reasoning is faulty, it is called denying the antecedent. Compare your form with...
If tickitytak does not exist, the fact that there is money in bank accounts is evidence that the money came about naturally.

You believe that the universe began as a very large cloud of hydrogen? Then at what point did that cloud become self aware? When it evolved to be a human? A simpler animal? A microbe?

[olavisjo]

Determinism states that everything has a determined cause and a determined effect. some interpret this to mean that since a choice was determined to happen, there was no choice to begin with. people believe that free will is a choice free of any determined outcome, as if it's free of influence or cause, but this idea is fundamentally flawed:

choice is not possible without influence; therefore, literal free will is impossible and illogical. determinism is the only explanation for how the illusion of free will (choice) is possible.

if you disagree, i would like for you to describe how one could possibly make a choice without any influence at all.

That sums it up pretty good.
So we really do not have a choice to be an Atheist or Christian or anything at all, so why do we spend so much time [strike]arguing[/strike] debating the topic?

[Cathar1950]

Determinism states that everything has a determined cause and a determined effect. some interpret this to mean that since a choice was determined to happen, there was no choice to begin with. people believe that free will is a choice free of any determined outcome, as if it's free of influence or cause, but this idea is fundamentally flawed:

choice is not possible without influence; therefore, literal free will is impossible and illogical. determinism is the only explanation for how the illusion of free will (choice) is possible.

if you disagree, i would like for you to describe how one could possibly make a choice without any influence at all.

That sums it up pretty good.
So we really do not have a choice to be an Atheist or Christian or anything at all, so why do we spend so much time [strike]arguing[/strike] debating the topic?

Because it is determined it can change so we debate.
We have choices but they are determined and debate may very well redetermine.

[olavisjo]

Because it is determined it can change so we debate.
We have choices but they are determined and debate may very well redetermine.

How is it possible for something to be re-determined? Can you explain the mechanics of the universe that allows for that?

[Cathar1950]

Because it is determined it can change so we debate.
We have choices but they are determined and debate may very well redetermine.

How is it possible for something to be re-determined? Can you explain the mechanics of the universe that allows for that?

Natural selection is a good example. The population of a species is being redetermined all the time.
Learning is another example.

[olavisjo]

How is it possible for something to be re-determined? Can you explain the mechanics of the universe that allows for that?

Natural selection is a good example. The population of a species is being redetermined all the time.
Learning is another example.

So, what it sounds like you are saying is that this universe is not determined by natural law, but rather some other law that is supernatural. A law that seeks to redetermine atoms into more and more complex arrangements to suit it's own will and desire. Like a god.
I think that you are trying to have it both ways in this argument, either the universe is determined by natural law or it is determined by something else.
So, I ask you again, what determines the events in our universe?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 18 Post 179:

You are saying that your desire to do things is not entirely dependent on the physical properties of the world you live in. Then what are they dependent on? Your soul? Your spirit?

I'm saying if one holds their breath, they have exercised free will.

If you are going to say that you have any amount of free will, you are admitting that the universe is not governed entirely by the law of cause and effect and that you are able to alter the universe according to your own will...

I'm in construction, I have changed the universe according to my (or my clients') will. I make no overt claims regarding cause and effect.

(and that you are able to alter the universe according to your own will...)which transcends the natural law that governs all things other than you and other agents with free will.

Please define "natural law", and then offer some means to verify this law is the sole governor of "all things".

This is nothing short of a belief in the supernatural.

Project much, Christian?

I have offered, on several occasions now, a clear example of free will. This example requires no known form of supernaturalism, only that one one breathe to a cadence of their choosing.

[Cathar1950]

How is it possible for something to be re-determined? Can you explain the mechanics of the universe that allows for that?

Natural selection is a good example. The population of a species is being redetermined all the time.
Learning is another example.

So, what it sounds like you are saying is that this universe is not determined by natural law, but rather some other law that is supernatural. A law that seeks to redetermine atoms into more and more complex arrangements to suit it's own will and desire. Like a god.
I think that you are trying to have it both ways in this argument, either the universe is determined by natural law or it is determined by something else.
So, I ask you again, what determines the events in our universe?

Everything does.
I am saying no such thing. I see nothing that doesn't operate according to natural laws. We respond and making choices are responses. But those responses are determined by all the conditions, experiences, desires, feelings and many other things while they are also determined by other factors. Granted we can make choices but so do other animals and they learn. Most of what we do involves conditioned and unconscious responses and even our conscious responses are conditioned. Making choices or responding is what we do in complex ways and we can learn from them adding more determinants.
Given new conditions that are presented and the adding or enrichment of determinants novelty is almost inevitable. It is because it is determined that it works. It is not predestined because of changes and the possibility of novelty in the accumulation that pure reiteration can provide. Even out values are learned and conditioned while being displayed within the context of our biological and social evolution as our populations responded to change over great amounts of time.
We are responsible much like an individual animal as a member of the heard is responsible to keep up for protection only much more complex.

[olavisjo]

Everything does.
I am saying no such thing. I see nothing that doesn't operate according to natural laws. We respond and making choices are responses. But those responses are determined by all the conditions, experiences, desires, feelings and many other things while they are also determined by other factors. Granted we can make choices but so do other animals and they learn. Most of what we do involves conditioned and unconscious responses and even our conscious responses are conditioned. Making choices or responding is what we do in complex ways and we can learn from them adding more determinants.
Given new conditions that are presented and the adding or enrichment of determinants novelty is almost inevitable. It is because it is determined that it works. It is not predestined because of changes and the possibility of novelty in the accumulation that pure reiteration can provide. Even out values are learned and conditioned while being displayed within the context of our biological and social evolution as our populations responded to change over great amounts of time.
We are responsible much like an individual animal as a member of the heard is responsible to keep up for protection only much more complex.

You still don't understand the implications of a determined universe. No "novelty" is possible and all the complexity was built in at the moment of creation.

For example, take a card game like 21. The dealer must follow a few simple rules, the other player should follow a slightly more complex set of rules, like never split a pair of 10's because it reduces his chances of winning. For our example we will assume that they all play strictly according to their rules, just like the universe always plays by it's natural laws of gravity, inertia etc.
Then it is easy to see that how the game unfolds is strictly determined at the moment the deck is shuffled. And if the deck were arranged in the same order a second time, the game will repeat exactly as it did before. No novelty is possible.
Also improbable events like the player getting ten 21's in a row, must be already in the cards at the time of shuffling.
Which would imply that all the complexity in this world and even all our thoughts were already built into our universe at the first moment of creation.

This must all be true if you believe that cause and effect rules our universe. If you are willing to introduce some other force that rules our universe you are welcome to do so. Bear in mind that natural selection is a subset of cause and effect. You(effect) are here because your parents were selected by the laws of the universe to reproduce(cause).

So you still need to explain how this novelty enters into the world, I can only think of two possible ways, either goddidit or it was built into the initial condition of the universe by sheer luck.