Logic v God

[McCulloch]

and he can NOT do anything that is logically(something he created,logic) impossible. okay so that means there is some limit within logic?

It doesn't matter how illogical it is, but the idea of him being capable to do it.
He created everything, therefore he created logic. (when the earth was made, some rules-like gravity,limitations for humans,etc...- were formed with them)
He can surpass his own creation just like how he,in as Jesus, can preform all those miracles, rise from the dead, and walk on water. Also,just like time, God isn't in our matter/space/time so rules such as logic shouldn't effect him.

Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

[Humble Bystander]

and he can NOT do anything that is logically(something he created,logic) impossible. okay so that means there is some limit within logic?

It doesn't matter how illogical it is, but the idea of him being capable to do it.
HWhere is your evidence, atheists? If you cannot so much as present evidence that the material universe is the Real, on what basis do you question the philosophers, prophets and sages? (when the earth was made, some rules-like gravity,limitations for humans,etc...- were formed with them)
He can surpass his own creation just like how he,in as Jesus, can preform all those miracles, rise from the dead, and walk on water. Also,just like time, God isn't in our matter/space/time so rules such as logic shouldn't effect him.

Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

Ravenstorm's quote: "He created everything, therefore he created logic." The use of the word "therefore" shows a logic train of thought - rational inference. The fact that Ravenstorm is using logic in an attempt to explain why logic doesn't apply to God is contradictory: God would not be able to be explained by Ravenstorm's logical statement.

In addition, as a friend of mine pointed out, just because our founding fathers created the law, does not mean that they are above it. Of course, assuming God is almighty, this might not apply to him, but just food for thought.

[fredonly]

and he can NOT do anything that is logically(something he created,logic) impossible. okay so that means there is some limit within logic?

It doesn't matter how illogical it is, but the idea of him being capable to do it.
He created everything, therefore he created logic. (when the earth was made, some rules-like gravity,limitations for humans,etc...- were formed with them)
He can surpass his own creation just like how he,in as Jesus, can preform all those miracles, rise from the dead, and walk on water. Also,just like time, God isn't in our matter/space/time so rules such as logic shouldn't effect him.

Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

Did God create reality? Wouldn't this imply God created himself? God exists (that's our premise here, anyway) and so he must exist within something real - a real framework(or he IS reality and everything is part of him) . If reality exists apart from God, then there must be still be some rules to reality. If he IS reality, then surely he can't consist of pure chaos, so again there must be a framework of rules. Rules of logic, and the existence of the basic elements of math (such as the number 8) seem like good candidates for "rules of reality."

If God is beyond the rules of logic then there's no point trying to understand Him, anything he does, nor anything he says to do since inferences can't be trusted - they are illusory. Can we deduce anything about anything if logic is an illusion? If God can create a circle with corners, a round cube, or if he can place something north of the north pole, then it's impossible to understand anything because everything becomes contingent.

[nebula]

and he can NOT do anything that is logically(something he created,logic) impossible. okay so that means there is some limit within logic?

It doesn't matter how illogical it is, but the idea of him being capable to do it.
He created everything, therefore he created logic. (when the earth was made, some rules-like gravity,limitations for humans,etc...- were formed with them)
He can surpass his own creation just like how he,in as Jesus, can preform all those miracles, rise from the dead, and walk on water. Also,just like time, God isn't in our matter/space/time so rules such as logic shouldn't effect him.

Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

The problem with demanding that God be able to accomplish illogical requests in order to be omnipotent is that the request fails on speaking it. That is, it's rubbish. Asking God to create a 'square circle' is the same as asking him to 'walk part hot' or any other random assortment of words. The problem isn't with God, it's with the speaker being incoherent.

[ChaosBorders]

and he can NOT do anything that is logically(something he created,logic) impossible. okay so that means there is some limit within logic?

It doesn't matter how illogical it is, but the idea of him being capable to do it.
He created everything, therefore he created logic. (when the earth was made, some rules-like gravity,limitations for humans,etc...- were formed with them)
He can surpass his own creation just like how he,in as Jesus, can preform all those miracles, rise from the dead, and walk on water. Also,just like time, God isn't in our matter/space/time so rules such as logic shouldn't effect him.

Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

The problem with demanding that God be able to accomplish illogical requests in order to be omnipotent is that the request fails on speaking it. That is, it's rubbish. Asking God to create a 'square circle' is the same as asking him to 'walk part hot' or any other random assortment of words. The problem isn't with God, it's with the speaker being incoherent.

That was C.S. Lewis' line of reasoning, and I think it is a good one. However, I think it is worth noting that even if God is so absolutely all-powerful as to be able to do 'nonsense' things like that, our minds would not likely be able to comprehend the action or results.

[EduChris]

...Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

God is the source of all being, all life, all love--and God is the source of all logic and reason as well. Logic is simply one expression of God's commitment to creating a universe that finite humans can at least try to begin to understand.

[fredonly]

...Is God beyond the rules of logic because God created logic?

God is the source of all being, all life, all love--and God is the source of all logic and reason as well. Logic is simply one expression of God's commitment to creating a universe that finite humans can at least try to begin to understand.

EduChris - Do you believe God himself is constrained by logic? Could he cause a contradiction to exist? Could he work outside the rules?

[EduChris]

Logic is simply one expression of God's commitment to creating a universe that finite humans can at least try to begin to understand.

EduChris - Do you believe God himself is constrained by logic? Could he cause a contradiction to exist? Could he work outside the rules?

If God wanted to prevent humans from understanding something about the world, I'm sure God could arrange things so that our human logic could not comprehend it, or comprehend it only with difficulty. I don't know if that counts as working outside the rules. But primarily God wants us to be able to know God, and one of the ways we can know God is through observing what God has made. It makes sense to me that the world is complex but yet still operates according to "ground rules" or "rules of logic" that we can at least partly grasp.

From our human point of view, there is more to know about God than can be comprehended merely through logic. Perhaps the things that seem to break the ordinary rules of logic are simply intended to remind us of this fact.

[McCulloch]

From our human point of view, there is more to know about God than can be comprehended merely through logic. Perhaps the things that seem to break the ordinary rules of logic are simply intended to remind us of this fact.

What rules of logic are you claiming that God can break? Can God exist and not exist?

[fredonly]

Logic is simply one expression of God's commitment to creating a universe that finite humans can at least try to begin to understand.

EduChris - Do you believe God himself is constrained by logic? Could he cause a contradiction to exist? Could he work outside the rules?

If God wanted to prevent humans from understanding something about the world, I'm sure God could arrange things so that our human logic could not comprehend it, or comprehend it only with difficulty. I don't know if that counts as working outside the rules. But primarily God wants us to be able to know God, and one of the ways we can know God is through observing what God has made. It makes sense to me that the world is complex but yet still operates according to "ground rules" or "rules of logic" that we can at least partly grasp.

From our human point of view, there is more to know about God than can be comprehended merely through logic. Perhaps the things that seem to break the ordinary rules of logic are simply intended to remind us of this fact.

You're interpreting "logic" to be the mental processes of logical inference. I'm asking (and I believe the context of this thread) pertains to the ontological existence of the rules of logic - rules that transcend humanity (just as the number "4" transcends humanity). Such facts as:
If (A implies B) and (B implies C) then (A implies C)
A and (B or C) = (A and B) or (A and C)

Relevant questions that pertain to God include:
Did God create the rules of logic, or do they transcend God? Transcending God simply implies the rules of logic are necessarily true, but also implies God is bound be these rules of logic. God cannot create a round square.

On the other hand, if God created logic then it implies he was not bound by the laws prior to their creation. He may, or may not, be bound by these laws after he created them. It seems to me this would imply that logic is an illusion, an overlay on top of chaos.

Some might argue that omnipotence implies God cannot be bound by the rules of logic. Others have argued that logic is simply the underlying order of reality, and God must operate logically.

[EduChris]

...You're interpreting "logic" to be the mental processes of logical inference. I'm asking (and I believe the context of this thread) pertains to the ontological existence of the rules of logic - rules that transcend humanity (just as the number "4" transcends humanity). Such facts as:
If (A implies B) and (B implies C) then (A implies C)
A and (B or C) = (A and B) or (A and C)

Relevant questions that pertain to God include:
Did God create the rules of logic, or do they transcend God? Transcending God simply implies the rules of logic are necessarily true, but also implies God is bound be these rules of logic. God cannot create a round square.

On the other hand, if God created logic then it implies he was not bound by the laws prior to their creation. He may, or may not, be bound by these laws after he created them. It seems to me this would imply that logic is an illusion, an overlay on top of chaos.

Some might argue that omnipotence implies God cannot be bound by the rules of logic. Others have argued that logic is simply the underlying order of reality, and God must operate logically.

God is existence, reason, order, love. God does not transcend logic, nor does logic transcend God. Logic and rationality are aspects of God. We do not understand God fully, nor do we fully understand logic. But we know enough about logic and God that we can relate to God and to the world God has made.

God cannot choose not to exist, not because of any external logical contraint but rather because God's nature is existence.