Can something be true if it cannot be shown to be true

[McCulloch]

Since no one can prove anything to the other when it comes to invisible concepts and spiritual principles of life, [...]

Question for debate: Is is meaningful to say that something is true that cannot be shown to be true, even in principle?

[EduChris]

...All religions aren't the same...

Agreed.

...trying to force Jews to fit in the same intellectually structured box as Christians and Muslims just isn't appropriate...

Are you trying to force Christians and Muslims into the same intellectually structured box? That's not appropriate either.

Your brand of very liberal Judaism seems consistent with very liberal forms of Christianity. Probably there is more variation within the various forms of Judaism (or within the various forms of Christianity) than there is between the more traditional adherents of each.

[EduChris]

...Can you interpret what is written on your screen??? If you can, then your laptop is processing information ... If it is gobbledygook, then your laptop is misprocessing information.

In neither case, however, is the laptop the least bit aware of what it's doing. And if it's been programmed to spit out random gobbledygook, then it isn't even "misprocessing" anything at all. Gobbledygook and "information" are both equally meaningless to laptop computers.

[Goat]

...Can you interpret what is written on your screen??? If you can, then your laptop is processing information ... If it is gobbledygook, then your laptop is misprocessing information.

In neither case, however, is the laptop the least bit aware of what it's doing. And if it's been programmed to spit out random gobbledygook, then it isn't even "misprocessing" anything at all. Gobbledygook and "information" are both equally meaningless to laptop computers.

It is taking specific bits, and following instructions to transform those specific bits in specific manner.

Does it need to be intelligent to be aware it's processing 'information'? No, it only needs to react in a specified manner.

specific input .. processing specific output.

Does the 'information' have to have any 'meaning'.. heck no... but it is being handled in a predetermined manner.

[cnorman18]

...All religions aren't the same...

Agreed.

...trying to force Jews to fit in the same intellectually structured box as Christians and Muslims just isn't appropriate...

Are you trying to force Christians and Muslims into the same intellectually structured box? That's not appropriate either.

Both orthodox, small o, Christianity, and all the varieties of Islam of which I am aware, DO consist of sets of theological propositions which must be accepted to be considered members of those religions, and those prescribed doctrines DO include the existence of God. Indeed, one IS a Christian because one holds such beliefs, no? A Christian is one who believes in Jesus. There are some Christians (some of my professors at Perkins, e.g.), who radically redefine what "faith in Jesus" means, but the requirement is still there, or one is not perforce a Christian.

I don't think there are any "atheist Christians" or "atheist Muslims" running around; both would be denounced as heretics, and in some nations, such Muslims' lives would be in literal, physical danger.

Your brand of very liberal Judaism seems consistent with very liberal forms of Christianity. Probably there is more variation within the various forms of Judaism (or within the various forms of Christianity) than there is between the more traditional adherents of each.

I think that's probably true; the conventional, orthodox varieties of the Abrahamic faiths have more in common, in theological terms, than is often thought to be the case, in particular their definitions of God and His attributes. My only point here is that Judaism allows more freedom of thought and conscience, by an order of magnitude or more, than the other two while still allowing such unorthodox believers to be considered full members of the community.

[EduChris]

...Judaism allows more freedom of thought and conscience, by an order of magnitude or more, than the other two while still allowing such unorthodox believers to be considered full members of the community.

Can one be considered a full member of the Jewish community if one believes that Jesus is the true Messiah and the Divine Son of God?

[EduChris]

...Does the 'information' have to have any 'meaning'.. heck no... but it is being handled in a predetermined manner.

My claim is that "unconscious handling of input in a predetermined matter" cannot be equated to the human experience of "consciousness."

[Goat]

...Judaism allows more freedom of thought and conscience, by an order of magnitude or more, than the other two while still allowing such unorthodox believers to be considered full members of the community.

Can one be considered a full member of the Jewish community if one believes that Jesus is the true Messiah and the Divine Son of God?

I have never met an Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or Humaniist Jew who thought that is the case.

That is one of the very few things there is universal agreement on.. if you think Jesus is the Messiah, you are of the Christian faith, not the Jewish one.

The same thing if you use the Koran, and accept Mohamed as the last prophet of God. you are of the Muslim faith, not the Jewish faith.

[EduChris]

...I have never met an Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or Humaniist Jew who thought that is the case...if you think Jesus is the Messiah, you are of the Christian faith, not the Jewish one...

But there are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact, all of the earliest "Christians" considered themselves to be Jews who had found the long-awaited Messiah. If modern-day Judaism does not accept such Jews, then all claims that Judaism has achieved some supposed "higher order of magnitude" regarding freedom of conscience is proved false.

[EduChris]

...if you use the Koran, and accept Mohamed as the last prophet of God. you are of the Muslim faith, not the Jewish faith.

Well, there are Christian Muslims who accept all of the trappings of Islam, and yet they interpret the Qur'an as allowing for Jesus to be the divine Son of God who has achieved salvation through his incarnation, life, death, and resurrection.

These Christian-Muslims are treated by mainstream Islam in the same way that mainstream Judaism treats Messianic Jews--which is to say, they label them as heretics.

[cnorman18]

...Judaism allows more freedom of thought and conscience, by an order of magnitude or more, than the other two while still allowing such unorthodox believers to be considered full members of the community.

Can one be considered a full member of the Jewish community if one believes that Jesus is the true Messiah and the Divine Son of God?

I have never met an Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or Humaniist Jew who thought that is the case.

That is one of the very few things there is universal agreement on.. if you think Jesus is the Messiah, you are of the Christian faith, not the Jewish one.

The same thing if you use the Koran, and accept Mohamed as the last prophet of God. you are of the Muslim faith, not the Jewish faith.

I would concur. Belief in Jesus as Messiah is one thing; belief in Jesus as God Incarnate and the literal Son of God is quite another. Since "Messianic Jews" believe the latter, they have left the community of Judaism and become Christians, no matter what they call themselves.

I said that Judaism allows more freedom of thought and belief than other faiths; I didn't say that that freedom was unlimited. Many beliefs are permitted on the spectrum of Judaism, but there are some that are forbidden. Belief in God becoming a man and being "saved" by belief in him are among them. Polytheism is another; human sacrifice is yet another.

Sorry. You don't get to say what beliefs are required of Jews, and you don't get to say which beliefs must be allowed for Jews, either. Only Jews get to make that determination, and on Jesus, Jews speak with one voice.

That probably has something to do with the two thousand years or so of vicious persecution of Jews by Christians which Christians, by and large, have yet to admit and take responsibility for. The murder, torture, and exile of Jews in and from every nation in Europe was not a matter of individual overzealous Christians; it was a matter of official Church doctrine and teachings, and was as often as not sanctioned, sponsored and carried out by Church officials under Church auspices. When the Christian community as a whole acknowledges these facts and collectively repents for those sins and renounces "Replacement Theology," which claims that the Jews have been replaced by the Church in God's favor and that Jews are henceforth doomed to Hell unless they come to Jesus, we can talk again. That belief is the specific cause, justification and origin of antisemitism and millions upon millions of murdered Jews, and it is held by members of this forum as we speak. The idea that Jews are obligated to renounce the tenets of Judaism and adopt the beliefs of our persecutors is repugnant and offensive to us. That isn't likely to change anytime soon.